creation of scenario for the 1992 Bosnian war

[General_Putnik]

Yea, but they fought them because they were Germans which put huge restrictions on Serbia and punished them (grudge because of Gabrilo Princip). So they were more fighting to restore what was the status quo than to join a multi-national effort to prevent the holocaust and other forms of genocide.

I guess thats why people like Ljotic were activly trying to hide jews and other undesirables while the Croats had Jasenovac.

PS - SS Skanderbeg division is not something to be proud of, and they get a bad rap for siding with the Germans (everyone does for picking the losing side), but they joined to fight off their Serbian enemies (which were enemies of the Germans), not to commit genocide on the Jews or other groups!

yet these guys call me a fascist - but those saying that Skenderbeg was ok get the free out of jail card

During World War II Albanians were having their own civil war, at the same time trying to get rid of occupiers and enemies (Italians, Germans, Serbs, Greeks, Communists, Fascists, etc.)

So, about the creation of a scenario for the Breakup of Yugoslavia...

include all sides and be objective.

question is what scenarios should be included, i am thinking of specific events (like whether or not the Banter commission makes their decision, the foreign intervention events, Nato bombing, perhaps an open entry of Serbia into the Bosnian conflict, NAto and Russian intervention.

 

[damir_k87]

and btw...serbs fought the nazis - you helped them.

nah i'm not that old.

and all your other comments are flawed, and they again point to what I have mentioned in my previous post. i think u maybe running out of arguements, since you again have to go back to WW2. once again everything you said is the work of individuals or a small group of people, therefore no genocide. War crimes yes, genocide no.

.. and for your information it was milosevic and tudjman who together planned to split Bosnia in half. You are full of propaganda. Your eyes are covered with it. I don't really think there is a point in talking to you since it is like talking to a stone wall.

 

[Oldfrt]

so does that mean that this is turning into a scenario or not?

 

[Shqype]

so does that mean that this is turning into a scenario or not?

include all sides and be objective.

But of course! It's more fun that way.

Not sure about your other comment having to do with fascist and Skanderbeg. I didn't understand you well...

 

[General_Putnik]

once again everything you said is the work of individuals or a small group of people, therefore no genocide. War crimes yes, genocide no.

Same with Hague Inquisition, the crimes were the work of small people except for del ponte and her lunatics. There was no genocide on Moslems in bosnia, get of your rocking chair granpa and look at the world.


PS: ethnic cleansing on all sides - yes...genocide no.

.. and for your information it was milosevic and tudjman who together planned to split Bosnia in half. You are full of propaganda. Your eyes are covered with it. I don't really think there is a point in talking to you since it is like talking to a stone wall.

look up who posted that - that was not me - get your facts straight.




as far as the scenario we can do something but like i said certain events would have to be nailed down.

 

[Koba the Dread]

Death to the fascists and their running dogs!

 

[damir_k87]

Same with Hague Inquisition, the crimes were the work of small people except for del ponte and her lunatics. There was no genocide on Moslems in bosnia, get of your rocking chair granpa and look at the world.

Are you actually serious about what you just said?
lol, here ladies and gentleman is a perfect example of Serbian propaganda. Whenever someone types in "Serbian Propaganda" in google, your posts should be the first thing that come up.

as far as the scenario we can do something but like i said certain events would have to be nailed down.

I don't know anything about the status of this scenario and there does not seem to be much interest in making it, but I do know one thing YOU won't be part of it, therefore you may keep your ideas and "views" to yourself.

 

[NP300]

I think its a bit sick to make a scenario about a war that raged in the 90's. That was a very evil war, and a lot of slaugthering was made, I simply dont understand that you can want to play that war?

They killed a lot of innocent civilians, and buried them im big massgraves.. And its only ca. 10 years ago? No no no.

And in what war weren't a lot of civilians slaughtered? That happens in all wars. By this standard there can't be any war scenarios.

I am continually astonished by the amount of double-think going on in many people's heads. The war in Bosnia was "evil" but WWII was the "good war", right? Good versus evil, right? It's ok to fight a war and kill civilians if it's in the name of "democracy" and "freedom", correct? Those are the "good wars"

 

[damir_k87]

And in what war weren't a lot of civilians slaughtered? That happens in all wars. By this standard there can't be any war scenarios.

I am continually astonished by the amount of double-think going on in many people's heads. The war in Bosnia was "evil" but WWII was the "good war", right? Good versus evil, right? It's ok to fight a war and kill civilians if it's in the name of "democracy" and "freedom", correct? Those are the "good wars"

You can do anything that comes to your mind if it's for democracy and freedom. That's how it works these days and probably how it always worked.

 

[gianluca790]

You can do anything that comes to your mind if it's for democracy and freedom. That's how it works these days and probably how it always worked.

Was the Atomic Bomb a Democratic device that promoted Freedom? No, it was a Fascist device that promoted Ideological Hegemony, and anyone who used it in the past on innocent civilians was a Fascist with a Hegemonic Ideology! There as just as many Bigots on the Left as there are on the Right!

 

[damir_k87]

I am fine with doing the whole Yugoslavia, but that will be a massive project and it will be impossible to make when it involves developers from different ethnic groups.

A quite easy thing to do would be to make a map of the ex-yugoslavia, and make a modern scenario with the 5 countries (6 if montenegro becomes independent), that way there would be no arguements about things like what belongs to who and whether to implement things like genocide. Then once that scenario is developed, and it is a success, we can go forward and make war scenarios and that sort of stuff.

 

[General_Putnik]

I am fine with doing the whole Yugoslavia, but that will be a massive project and it will be impossible to make when it involves developers from different ethnic groups.

you see this is the problem with you - its democracy and freedom yet no tolerance. This is exactly was Aliajas SDA was about - democratic and freedom loving but intolerant of others and what they thought.

A quite easy thing to do would be to make a map of the ex-yugoslavia, and make a modern scenario with the 5 countries (6 if montenegro becomes independent), that way there would be no arguements about things like what belongs to who and whether to implement things like genocide. Then once that scenario is developed, and it is a success, we can go forward and make war scenarios and that sort of stuff.

Actually it should be more then 5 countries - one would have to identify the different people in question and what is happening - for example Montenegro could be permanently allied to Serbia, same with Kosovo until 98/99

Bihac Moslems could be allied with Serbs vs Central Moslems yet neutral with Croatians. Bosnian Moslems and Croatians could war with each other until the Moslem / Croatian alliance occurs.


So what is needed for this scenario.

A 1990 or earlier map of Yugoslavia based on ethnic Demographics so that we can get the right culture and desposition of what percentages etc etc.

Also if you look @ the American Scenario that came with CivIV you can gain some insight bout how some things might happen. For example. An early JNA victory in Vukovar might crush Croatia initially, but a prolonged fight or even successful defence might strenghten Croatian morale and Army expertise and vice versa.

Which brings us to the second - A time line - i would suggest wikipedia as the main source for general info and then debate about what alternative events might take place.

and damir, what you need to realize is that though we might never share the same political opinion - and lets not try to convince one of the other - i am not going to attack you personally in terms of this. You are welcome to dispute my claims and i am sure that that would be a lenghty period.

So instead of doing that -lets try to find common ground on what can be done on this scenario.

 

[damir_k87]

No problems if we can find a common ground that's great, but how can we find a common ground when I disagree with everything you say and stand for, and I am not trying to insult you here but that is a simple fact.

 

[General_Putnik]

The evaluate your enemy objectivly.

 

[Shqype]

That's an interesting idea for a scenario. I like it.

 

[Chieftess]

Moderator Action: English, please. It sounds like you're talking about someone behind their backs in another language (ignore list?) so that they can't understand what you're saying. damir_k87, General_Putnik, and [CRO]Nemesis Warned. Please provide an English translation.


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[Chieftess]

Moderator Action: Let's start posting in English. CIV-fanatic - warned for posting in Croatian. I don't know if you posted that as a normal post, flame, or troll. The next person two write in another language, and ignore yet another moderator action will be banned.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Chieftess]

Moderator Action: Apparently, another staff member was able to translate one of the posts, and it contained vulgarities. [CRO]Nemesis - 3 day ban for excessive foul language.

All posts that contained non-english texts were removed.

 

[Spartan117]

really though... talk about it in like general discussions or offtopic forum... no scenario can be done with constant bickering, if you guys want to debate go off topic or general discussion and have an "civilized" debate but more on topic the more scenariios the better....

 

[General_Putnik]

i tried to asnwer most of my stuff in english - i appologize for not visiting the forums earlier and doing so - the problem with the scenario in this case is that the contribution is often called in question by others