Crippling the AI's research capability

[oogie]

Okay ... here's a tip that I found works wonders.

After almost every negotiation with an AI, I offer them a final gift of 1 gold. Over the long term, it has jacked up my approval rating to 98% or higher (instead of floating around 50%).

Even if I initiate a war against one (non-allied) civ, my elevated approval rating suffers little.

Give it a go!

Cheers!,

Oogie :crazyeyes

 

[Starkist]

I discovered this strategy and used it as well. Another thing that I've found is effective, is when I conquer a few enemy cities, I sign a peace treaty. Howeer, as part of the treaty, I get several cities. Depending on the opponent, I may have to trade techs or gold, but I still get the cities I want. It's easier to conquer an empire this way than by taking each city by force. Then, when my troops are all positioned again, I attack again.

Another way to suck money away from the other civs is to renegotiate peace with them and demand money. Or in some cases, if I'm sufficiently more powerful than a certain civ, I just demand a per turn arrangement.

 

[oogie]

Hi Starkist!

How's our friend Charlie-the-Tuna doing? Is he still in the can?

Okay ... Concur with your observations re: negotiating for cities ... did that several times vs the Aztecs while playing the Iroquois. Basically, when its time to rebuild/rest my forces, I negotiate peace and try to get cities in the deal.

The line I always use (regardless of the position on the board) is "I seem to have overextended myself ..." Why? Because this opens up the screens such that I can get other items thrown into the peace treaty settlement.

Also, since, unlike Civ II, you don't get a civ advance for conquering cities, if its early in a Civ III game, I'll negotiate for the victim civ's technology advances just prior to unleashing hell upon them ... especially if they are isolated from other civs early in the game and can't give away the secrets.

--------------------

Separate idea ... protracted bombardment strategy. I got to the point in one game where one of my cities was near an opposing more cultural city and I would have lost it due to their cultural influence. However, my military was not all that strong. Solution? Spearmen, walls, horsemen and catapults.

Walls ... protected my existing holdings with Walls and garrisons of spearmen. Park an extra defensive catapult in the same city and fortify it ... which places it in auto bombardment mode.

Spearmen: Parked other entrenched spearmen next to the culturally influential city.

Catapults: Parked the catapults with the spearmen next to the culturally influential ciy.

Horsemen: Based horsemen out of the encampment, too.

Tactics:
1) Bomb bomb bomb bomb ... destroy the temple, library, population, bomb the city to the stoneage.

2) Use the horsemen to pillage the roads and improvements around the city.

At the same time, I payed big bucks to get another country to attack my opponent. When I made peace, my cities were intact and thriving, the threatening cultural centers were rubble, and the opponent was still busy fighting on another front.

Cheers!

Oogie

:crazyeyes

 

[eMarkM]

A fine strategy and one I've used on Regent and lower. But very tough on higher levels. On Emp or Deity, you're so far behind in tech so quickly it's impossible to be Science Broker. At least for me. Has anyone managed a tech lead in Ancient times on Monarch and up? I've managed to catch up in a later era on Monarch, but in the early going it's awfully difficult.

I've put science up to 80-90% on higher levels and made sure every tile worked has a road for the $, but I still can't keep up in the tech race. The other civs usually have parity in tech, so it's even hard to go buy a tech from one in cash and then trade it to the others because they all already have them.

e

 

[Clutch-3]

Are you guys sure you aren't inadvertently using the massive "gold/turn" bug? If you read the forums you will know
that people have seen that under certain circumstances, the AI will promise you insane amounts of gold/turn in certain deals. One fellow actually rolled over his treasury counter after the AI started paying him over 10,000/turn gold! Do any of these SB deals fall into that category? Some of them sound a little over the edge... in any case, it sounds like a good strat.

 

[Wislem]

Actually I just found out about that bug today, so no I haven't been using it.

 

[Starkist]

The money bug is totally different. I got that to work yesterday finally, Elizabeth, rather than destroying me like she could have, gave me 999999999 per turn. The treasury rolled over zero every other turn, and I could buy all the cities of all the other countries. It got boring though, too much management.

 

[d96msc]

In regard to other civs paying $1000s for a tech, I believe that this is part of a mistake in the game.
Yes, a tech may be worth this kind of cash (or even much more), if no other civilization that you know of is willing to sell it for less!
So selling the tech to many civs at the same time shouldn't give much more than selling the tech only to one civ.

I hope a patch will include some kind of market evaluation, removing this kind of gameplay.

/Michael

 

[Flynn]

"I hope a patch will include some kind of market evaluation, removing this kind of gameplay. "

What really needs to happen is that if you sell a tech to a rival for X, then also sell it to another rival for X/2, your reputation with the first rival needs to drop.

There's no reason for a civ to think they're getting an exclusive right to the technology. They know you can sell it to others. That's logical. But they should expect a market valuation.

The fact that you sell it all at the same time is crucial, though. A civ that buys a technology from you should sell it to anyone they can on the next turn. You should be forced to sell to every one to maximize your dollars.

Basically, the way to improve it is A) make the civs strongly in favor of a "sell to one, sell to all, buy from one, sell to all" strategy. Unless you're in an MPP or Embargo agreement, they should expect that if any other civ has the tech, they'll broker it. B) if you sell to someone else for less after "ripping off" a civ, your reputation should suffer.

 

[searay0]

Perhaps the thing that makes the SB strategy the most unbalanced is that the AI does NOT use it. If the AI was programmed to use this strategy, then there would be some free market competition for techs. Instead, you have a monopoly on the SB concept, so you can exploit the market for techs. Simple business, really. Perhaps the next patch will include active SBing in the AI. Then see how you do...

 

[DavesWorld]

I think the AI already SBs; the AIs will trade techs with each other but not, that I've noticed, to the human without the human asking for and making a deal. The AI will never knock on your door, at least it doesn't in my games, and say "hey, we'll give over Nationalism for fifteen gold per turn".

I don't know if the AI inter-tech-trading is for value, or is being done for a song though. I would assume the AIs trade for value, and not for nothing; but perhaps they're only coded to consider value when dealing with the human. However, I have tended to notice the screwed up AI civs in my games (the small civs or those that don't seem to be able to get their economies or cities working well) tend to *stay* behind. I'd assumed the gimp AI would have the tech I didn't sell to them given over for something minor by another AI civ, but that doesn't seem to happen all that much in my SB games.

 

[bork]

Call in what you want the SB-method is in mine opinion the only way to defeat the AI on deity level

Try to build an army to elimanate neighbours who could be very strong in the future.
In the midgame try to keep their military development down by trying to posses as many strategic resources. You can't have them all, but if one lacks of horses the other one of iron an another one of salpeter and try to keep them to stop trading with eachother (destroy connected roads) you have a chance I think.
I'm no almost at he year of Christ his birth and i'm doing well. For the end game i'm trying to accumulate wonders and buildings for a tech race. Bach cathedral, sistine chappel to keep mine people relaxt etc so i can stwitch on science at democracy level and hopefully try to develop a tech of mine own.

good hunting!

 

[DavesWorld]

That's great Bork. How is Diety level strategy relevant to Science Brokering? Most agree it probably won't work on Diety; the crushing numerical advantage the AI is given for its efforts rules it out in all liklihood (its a 60% production and commerce advantage for the AI isn't it?). Most experienced Civ opinions I've seen agree the only reliable way to have a shot at victory on Diety is to go total Conquest.

That's why I have not yet, and probably won't, start a game on Diety. Ancient era war = boring IMO. Modern War is somewhat less boring, but still bad without simple interface tools (like the ability to move stacks and such; moving a huge modern army is a PAIN, much worse than dealing with 75 workers).

SBing is for builder players, not for Conquest players. SBing will probably remain the realm of Reget and Emperor level players. Hardcase Conquest players play Diety and there ya go.

 

[bork]

two reasons: 1) to keep up the tech race with the ai
2)to have a good income per turn
So you can put your efforts on beaten the ai, the weakest first.
By blocking strategic resources like horses and salpeter you can improve your units and the ai can't.
While doing this i'm trying to create a future tech city with buliding library, university copernicus obs. and newton college in one town (classic strategy) rush building the last to with great leaders.
Hopefully i'll be able to make a good science production level per turn.
No i'm restricted to 32 turns (in 1.16 patch it will be 40) for a tech, so i won't be able to get a lead so just SB them.
the problem with the 1.07 patch is the corruption while being a republic i lose a lot commerce. Hopefully the patch will work on a existing game otherwise mine tech city wont work because its located at the other end of mine empire.
Than I also have to build the secret palace in mine tech town.
The tech town should be able in the future (industrieos and modern) to gain something on the ai to get a headstart in a techtree line the ai isn't doing.

 

[menelaus]

Seems to me like the free market reigns in the tech trade.

There is no "exclusive use" riders or contracts for that matter on the selling of tech advancements. If there were, maybe then I could see a reputation hit on you if you sell to another civ. I work on the idea of "pay what you can". Hell! I even GIVE the rival to the civ that paid a small fortune for a tech (especially if their rival civ is smaller) the tech advancement to keep them stalemated. So, I collect my money and don't consider i taking advantage of them; they knew the consequences (or should have). Maybe the answer is an exclusive use clause or something more expansive in the diplomacy screen.

All in all, I think the diplomacy screen is far better than civ2 but still has a long way to go. No non-proliferation treaties, no "we will not build this wonder for X" treaty, no "Declare war on X civ while I stay out of it" agreement, no "embargo X civ while I continue trade for Y" agreement, no "We demand you make peace with X and I will give you Y to do so." No "Right of passage through just YOUR territory" ability, and, the biggest loss, no way to give another civ a military unit! It's enough to make me revert back to the Civ1 "Demand tribute for our patience", then sneak attack!, ad nauseum strategy we all know and love. Who cares about reputation?! I'm ahead and they're behind. They can suffer. Just too bad I can't mass with them with espionage like I did in civ2... it's now just too @#$! expensive.

 

[spork]

I guess I'm not a fan of Science Brokering. I can set up my civ so that in a democracy (monarch level) on a standard map I can crank science at almost 600 per turn in the mid-industrial age, and still be in the black, all without taking in money from foreign powers. That's with about 12 cities which produce 25-35 shields each. With this sweet setup, why should I make research easier for my rivals? Let them sweat it out on their own with research, while I race ahead. I must confess that with all that shield production I get restless and periodically blitz-attack my neighbors. Taking their cities is the best way to weaken them, and it's painfully easy when you have are five techs ahead and produce four tanks per turn. You don't get a lead like that by science brokering.

 

[zero]

Originally posted by DavesWorld
That's great Bork. How is Diety level strategy relevant to Science Brokering? Most agree it probably won't work on Diety; the crushing numerical advantage the AI is given for its efforts rules it out in all liklihood (its a 60% production and commerce advantage for the AI isn't it?). Most experienced Civ opinions I've seen agree the only reliable way to have a shot at victory on Diety is to go total Conquest.

Science brokering has worked well for me at Diety level with the Iroquois on a huge map with 15 civs.

I started by adding my worker to my first city first turn. Ran the scout to find the others, sold my maps over and over until I had enough money to get an exclusive tech, then rode the trades to build out all the culture buildings, including universities and cathedrals, in the BC.

Also, I did not build any military units until the AD. That was tricky.

Here's an attached saved game at 950BC with us going into the middle ages.

Still, I have not won the game...

 

[Moulton]

I work at tech brokering whernever possible. Keeps me up with them when I could not out produce them in the early game, and keeps my budget in the black. Sometimes, they do not have enough money to buy... But it still keeps them broke.
By industrial age I am several techs ahead, and continue to sell, but several techs behind.
Meanwhile, they have no cash... cannot hurry production. Cities suffer, buildings are slower--well, not hasted--and my military grows to twice theirs.
On Regency, now, haveing recently gotten cav, the only one with cav, and with about 30 units, upgraded with cash from trading.
You CAN get significanly ahead in power on the tech broker strategy.
I am past the poere curve now, and unless I screw it up this game is in the bag. Not boring yet, It is easily possible for something still to go wrong, and lose it.

 

[Zouave]

I think it is wise to not pass around your techs in trades - everyone will soon get them. Better to try and buy them with gold or luxuries (so build those roads and harbors, and establish trade routes).

Of course, this assumes the AI does not cheat. Unfortunately, I assume the AI gives out free techs to civs to "keep the game close" if at some point you were way ahead. I've seen it happen.

 

[BillChin]

Seems like a popular and workable strategy, but like a lot of strategies, how well it works depends a lot on the difficulty level and size of map.

I play Emperor difficulty, standard size map, random civ, random map type, default barbs. I estimate that in about 10% of my game starts would a Science Broker approach have a reasonable chance of success. In the about 50% of the game starts, an early war is a necessity to get enough room to breath. In another 25% of games an expansionist wipes another player out very quickly and becomes dominant very early. There is little chance for a human player to keep up with research in that case with my starting conditions. In some other games, some civs just wants to fight (early unique unit) and nothing can convince them otherwise.

Changing the starting conditions, such as a lower difficulty level, a large or huge map, raging barbs, a scientific civ (obviously), fewer players, would increase the percentage.

Large or huge maps give you more time to get rolling, as the AI does not get a movement bonus, so it takes a long time to deliver an army to your door. A large map also slows the tech trading among the AI players, which is the heart of their overall tech advantage.

Raging barbs helps because it crimps AI expansion as they always send one escort with settlers. More barbs also costs them gold early in the game when barbs are more dangerous.

In reading the board, I have come to the conclusion that Diety difficulty on a Huge map lets you try about as many strategies as Monarch on a Standard map. Not to say that the end game is as easy, but many more starting strategies have a chance of success.