Critique my early game GaK strategy

[IAmOzymandias]

First off, I most often play a standard or large game with standard timer on a continents map. I can often win on King but sometimes can succeed on Emperor I'd like to move up to Emperor/Immortal so i'm looking for some tips on my strategy that I use.

Now, this is sort of my all-around general early game strategy, not necessarily what I do every game, but the general plan going in. Obviously I can't play the same way due to neighbours, lack of resources, somebody else getting certain key wonders first, or other factors.

First, i'll settle my city (duh) I might move one tile if it's in my interests, such as away from deserts, towards mountains, ETC. I will almost always move to settle on a river tile.

Next i'll start building my first unit. This is nearly always a worker. I'll beeline writing to try for GL first. I often send my warrior in a circle around my city. This occasionally leads to him going off on an adventure, but most of the time i'll reveal a 3 tile circle from the fog around my CC and return him to defend my worker by the time it builds. I'll often try to build farms on my river tile first. I also put priority on any resources (lux or strategic) I'll sort of play this by ear as to what tech I have, what can be improved, what needs to be improved and what my empire needs.

I always forego building a monument in my CC, as I always go for tradition to maintain my empire (I rarely find myself with an empire larger than 3, maybe 4 cities due to the slow start I often get in expansion. If I have time, i'll build, or start building a granary to boost pop/sci. In GaK I sometimes take to building a shrine to get a pantheon and Fertility Rites instead.

So long as I don't have one or maybe two turns to finsih whatever i'm building, i'll often switch over ASAP to the great library as soon as I hit writing. I'll let my worker finish whatever he's doing and build mines/chop forest to expedite the GL. If I miss GL it's often only by a few turns and i'm pretty boned. I'll often build a library instead and then weigh my options from there.

If I DO get the GL (oftentimes I do on king, sometimes on Emperor) I'll often have Calendar researched by now and bunnyhop to the NC. By this time i'm set for science (which I consider to be the most important, although not only, part of building your Civ for success)


Other Notes.

I'll buy a scout when I get 140 gold and use him to explore.

Unless I find an upgrade with my scout, or manage to befriend a militaristic CS, i'm often woefully underpowered unit-wise by the time i get the NC

Playing on standard or smaller maps, Most of the good land is often taken by the time I get NC

Although this strategy has quite a few early game flaws, such as those listed above, It sets you up with a powerful mid-game scientific (and therefore militaristic if need be) advantage. I've seen that it's a fairly common tactic to rush GL early game, and I know that i've beaten or been beaten to the punch by only a couple of turns a number of times in online games with competative players.

I know everybody plays differently, and hopefully you guys can let me know if i'm doing anything blatantly wrong, or if you know any tricks that are useful early game!

 

[chazzycat]

you can definitely improve your early build order

unless it's archipelago, building at least 1 scout first almost always pays off. You will get a LOT more ruins, meet the CS and AI faster, etc if you build a scout that early. Ruins are pretty huge, especially culture & faith, and meeting religious CS first is also a big difference.

worker is still a good build, maybe not first but certainly up there. however if you have wheat or deer in your starting tiles, a granary before worker will pay off more. Granary would add 3 food with just 1 wheat/deer, which is a lot more value than 1 worker can provide that early.

if you don't get a culture ruin, you want to build a monument early. otherwise opening tradition will take a long time and you'll be behind. I actually will build a monument most of the time when I go tradition because that means I'll get a free amphitheater when the time comes. Also the tradition finisher is so good that you want to finish it sooner rather than later.

Learn to live without the GL if you want to move up. Sure its powerful but it's also a crutch if you build it every game.

You never mentioned expansion which is a critical part of the opening game. Are you waiting until after NC with just one city in order to expand?

 

[IAmOzymandias]

Yep. I'll just beeline for NC, which is part of the reason I build a worker first off. With the big push for NC, there's no time in between to build one later, so it would be turn 45+ before i get my first worker. In that time, my original worker could have built several farms/resources and got lux to grow my CC.

Yeah, i could cap a worker from a CS, but that's always setting you up for the possibility of permanent war, plus it's just a dick move.

Also, I never realized that you would get a free ampitheatre if you already had a monument, that's a pretty big deal. How does that work, does one need the tech for ampitheatre or do you get it always so long as you have monument?

As far as expansion, I will oftentimes leave that until I finish NC. Having that second city delays NC until all cities have a library. Being able to pump out (relatively) massive early game science by turn 35-40 has always made up for it, in my mind.

I know that not settling a second city until about turn 50+ isn't ideal, but in this scenario it's impossible unless one delays the NC, which is a huge early game science boost when stacked with GL.

Often by the time I settle my second or third city, i'll have the full bonus of tradition which aids in quick growth of my cities. The main issue is finding land when setting around turn 50/75/100, and even then, admittedly, I often don't find good land to settle or get distracted. I know I put a very low priority on expansion and rarely have a Civ with more than 3 cities from settling.

 

[Syntax Error]

How to deal without the early wonders like GL and Stonehenge? Go and build your Archers! Archery should be 2nd or third tech. Something like this:

Are there Bananas/Deer/Wheat (for wheat, make sure it's on a river) around or I want a shot at an early Pantheon/Religion? Go Pottery (build Granary/Shrine while Archery is researching) -> Archery

Are there Mining Luxuries around I can hook then sell early? Go Mining -> Archery

Are there no food resources around me? Go Animal Husbandry -> Archery. If there are horses around, connect them and sell. If not, then you were really unlucky and it would have been much better to just get Pottery (but you will never know until you tried.)

Granary's built-in 2 food bonus helps quite a lot in the early game as well. Also, go and sell your GPT for a loan. In Standard, I think it's 112 Gold per 5 GPT. Get 200 gold, sell 5 GPT and buy a worker. This is incredibly useful if you don't want/need an early worker. This means the cap can build Scout -> Monument -> Shrine without a loss in turns needed to get tile improvements online.

 

[IAmOzymandias]

I think the big issue I have is that this has been my playstyle basically since i started playing prince on Civ V. It just seems so intuitive to beeline the NC. you get a free tech from GL, hey! why not go straight for the NC to compound your science!

I'm not saying I'm not willing to try other playstyles, that's why I opened this thread. It just feels so foreign to completely abandon the GL rush lol.

I do like the idea about buying an early game worker with a loan, only issue I have with that is that it isn't likely to work online vs IRL players. Still a very nifty idea.

On the idea of bananas/oranges/anything in jungles. while i'm doing this rush tactic i'll look to settle jungles. I can usually get guilds/education pretty early and work on getting the extra gold and beakers from jungle tiles. Stack that with the bonuses from GL/NC (if jungles are by CC) and you've got a mid game scientific juggernaut of a city.

 

[Syntax Error]

Unless you have Bronzeworking already (or you have a reason to go Bronzeworking early), settling jungles will usually delay you. If there's lots of bananas, then go for it. Let your people be monkeys for a while. Make sure to settle ON the lux though. That will give you the happiness once you get the tech.

 

[Masadon]

Like Chazzycat said building that scout first is huge in my opinion. Knowing the lay of the land,ruins,cs and AI player starting positions is a big advantage. You said you want to bump up to immortal? If so you better forget about the GL. Your going to need miltary and fast. The AI is hungry at immortal not so much emperor , but imho emperor and immortal are two different beast. I even go as far as building a 2nd Scout sometimes. Popping lots of ruins can have a huge advantages.

 

[chazzycat]

Yep. I'll just beeline for NC, which is part of the reason I build a worker first off. With the big push for NC, there's no time in between to build one later, so it would be turn 45+ before i get my first worker. In that time, my original worker could have built several farms/resources and got lux to grow my CC.

I think you are overemphasizing the importance of the NC. It can boost your science a lot, but so can building more cities if you found them near/on luxuries so they can grow a bit. Try expanding to 4 cities before NC if you are going tradition. Getting those cities up fast will really pay dividends once you get free aqueducts. Maybe buy one of the libraries in your poorest production city.

Yeah, i could cap a worker from a CS, but that's always setting you up for the possibility of permanent war, plus it's just a dick move.

That move isn't necessary except maybe on deity. I agree with you and don't ever do it (and play successfully on immortal). I typically will build one worker relatively early (2nd or 3rd build) and also buy one with my first 310 gold. Try building the scout and buying the worker instead.

Also, I never realized that you would get a free ampitheatre if you already had a monument, that's a pretty big deal. How does that work, does one need the tech for ampitheatre or do you get it always so long as you have monument?

you do need to research the tech.

I know that not settling a second city until about turn 50+ isn't ideal, but in this scenario it's impossible unless one delays the NC, which is a huge early game science boost when stacked with GL.

Its a great strategy on the lower levels but you can't get GL on higher levels, so it doesn't work as well. Getting used to expanding before NC and skipping the GL will help you learn a lot.

Often by the time I settle my second or third city, i'll have the full bonus of tradition which aids in quick growth of my cities. The main issue is finding land when setting around turn 50/75/100, and even then, admittedly, I often don't find good land to settle or get distracted. I know I put a very low priority on expansion and rarely have a Civ with more than 3 cities from settling.

just try a game as Maya, France, or another good expansion civ, and expand like mad. Sometimes I won't even build the NC until like the industrial age, but I'll have like 10 cities. I'm not saying thats ideal for most maps, but it certainly is worth trying out to get get a feel for different play styles.

 

[IAmOzymandias]

syntax- the whole reason I prefer jungle tiles is that if you build a trading post, and have a university, they now become a very powerful tile. Add that to. . . is it economics that double trading post gold? and then the one civic that adds another beaker and each trading post jungle is an absolutely massive tile. They take a while to build up to.

Masadon/Chazzy- I suppose you're right. I think the big issue i'm having moving up from King to Emperor is that the production bonus received for AI and the fact I only have 2-3 cities make it VERY difficult to win wars.

Here's an example of a game I was playing earlier. On emperor, started up and played as usual, got to the NC by turn 45 or so. Played the way discribed. Very soon i had a great scientist and by turn 75 I had 2 cities and was pumping out science like crazy, nearly 100 per turn. Techs left and right. Then i get blindsided by Japan, they ride in with like 20 spearmen/composite bowmen and a couple catapults.

So i stop whatever it was I was building at the time and pump out a horseman because i'm on the doorstep of getting it potentially upgraded to knight. I move a couple of horsemen that were out exploring back to base and garrison my musketman in the city so he can strike from there. (Yes, a very small army.) I use my musketman and attack some random soldiers but ignore his catapults. He caps my CC and I realize that was stupid. I reload and go for his catapults, take them out and between just my one horseman (eventually knight) and musketman, take his offensive apart and scatter his troops. He ends up giving me all the gold/resources he has to declare peace, so i take it and continue on.

I push on and expand my cities. I'm on the same continent as the Polynesians, Japan and Austria. Austria is snapping up land and CSes left and right so i figure it's time for war. I rush for artillery, and build up a few cannons to upgrade. I'm doing really really well, I figure. Japan comes in but i'm on the cusp of arty and they're coming in with pikemen, so i push him out again relatively easily. Same story as the first time, he gives me some gold and runs back home. This is around turn 150-175 I think, I might be wrong.

So, I figure it's time to teach austria a lesson, I'll head into the CS they just married into, and liberate it. (didn't realize it didn't work like that at the time)

End up running a sneak attack and capturing lhasa relatively easily, only losses were one knight. I have a couple of riflemen, 5 artillery pumping into it, and a knight or two. Pretty good army, I figure. Always works on king.

This is where it starts to go south, both figuratively and literally, I push south and start building public schools for the extra science. every turn 2 or 3 units will come up, the arty will hit them and usually take them out, sometimes taking damage. It's the UU mounted unit for Austria and musketmen. Far below what i'm using.

I hit the next city and take it in about 3 turns, but between 3-5 units are coming north every single turn now. I figure it's just their garrison coming at me. The city goes back and forth a few times, something i'm not used to. Austria is pushing back but not really winning.

Finally the city is just trashed, has 1 citizen so i just figure this is pointless and raze it. At this point, japan somehow AGAIN has enough units to declare war on me. I get a spy's warning that he's coming for Lhasa. I've lost a couple of arty and both my riflemen were lost when the city kept going back and forth from being so weak. I move my artillery back north to lhasa bombarding as I go, and lose one in the process. I finish the public schools and by this time have the ability to produce great war infantry, so i do. I build a couple and hop to standard infantry with plastics.

I eventually get some arty down there to reinforce the arty that got destroyed, and a couple of infantry. By this time japan has musketmen but I easily drive him out. same story, he declares peace and gives me some cash/resources.

This is where i'm stuck right now. I have far superior units, and usually once I get to Artillery I can just blow past anybody who doesn't. Austria barely has cannons and I've got Infantry, But I just can't push south on Austria. The production is just so crazy I can't match it with superior units alone.


Anyways, it's a learning experience, i'll probably start a new game and ignore GL, focus on exploration and expansion.

TL;DR: The jump to emperor is hard for me because the AI gets such a huge boost in production.

 

[Terakahn]

Couple things.

1. ALWAYS go after siege units first when you're being attacked. They're probably the only reason you lost your city. 2-3 catapults and 1-2 melee units can usually cap a city unless its super fortified. ie: Castle, Hill, over a river.
2. That army with 5 Artillery is going to be pretty solid until they get flight, or match your army size on equal tech levels. But even then you should be able to steamroll all their cities.
3. if you're stalemating their armies, you don't have enough ranged units. This is one occasion where gatling guns arent ideal because they dont have actual range to them. but then if you have gatling guns, you can just stop building melee units and have them in front. So it just depends where you end up fighting in the tech tree.

Emperor isn't actually that hard for me personally. My problem is my cities falling by the wayside while I conquer. Happiness/GPT issues.

Also, if you're that far ahead in tech, just grab flight. You can start stockpiling bombers with a few fighters and just snipe all their cities with ease. They can't match your production when they dont have cities =)

 

[IAmOzymandias]

I'd almost like to livestream/Let's Play a game and put it up for critique. I know I can improve quite a bit, but I don't think i'm that bad,either.

And yeah, in hindsight I wasn't sure why I didn't smoke his catapults early the first time, he never even got my city 66% of the way down when I reloaded and took them out.

 

[Tachii]

Remember, an Ancient wonder is equivalent of 4 archers + some hammers. 4 archers upgraded to CBs + 2 melee units can easily take out a city with decent terrain. Early wars are pretty easy to win if you neglect a wonder. And that's just that, ONE wonder. You can build some classical wonders equally as well, but getting 4 archers out will help you out way more in the short and long run than a wonder, especially if you have nearby expansive/warmonger civs.

Also I'd say it's more optimal in the long run to get 2-3 more cities before you build the NC. This also makes sure you have room to be building other things, from a granary to archers to stone works, giving yourself a decent infrastructure before you build NC.

 

[IAmOzymandias]

EDIT: Random'd japan btw.

just started a game where i totally bypassed building the GL/NC. Got a small army of archers and a pile of gold early on. Found quite a few ruins early too. Long story short, got attacked by about 8 units from Austria just as I was settling my third city around turn 55 or so. Drove them back, and ended up taking her CC with the composite bowmen i was just getting (she didn't factor in the upgrade i guess)

ended up beating austria, so I have 4 cities but now my happiness is literally down the tubes, like -7. SO i start building happiness buildings and nebuchadnezzar tells me he hates me, so I know something is going down by then, i start massing what's left of my army (a few catapults, bowmen and a horseman) and start moving them in for a sneak attack when I see his army of warriors, bowmen and pikemen coming down. I beat back his attack in my CC by buying a catapult which i plan to bunnyhop up to his CC and take it, his second city has a pitiful defense of 13, so i figure it will be easy.

NOPE. he ends up killing 1 unit of mine per turn. I can't even do 66% damage to his city, never mind take it, because his pikeman is bouncing around like a pinball killing all my units. I get steel but don't have enough iron to utilize my OP samarai, and to top it off, my civ is just at -10 happiness (probably why all my units are getting destroyed.)

basically, i'm noticing a trend. I know the AI plays the whole "i've got seven civs, you have one" to it's advantage somewhat, but this is just silly.

At this rate, there's nothing I can do even if i do invest in total war and win, because my empire will be so unhappy production and growth will be nil, and in all likelihood, the AI will pull the ottoman into the mix and get them to declare total war on me as well.

 

[Tachii]

Wait so you conquered Austria entirely? That isn't 7 AI civs against you, that's just a very negative diplomatic modifier in Civ5. Unless you're ready for a complete war game, there's no point taking someone's capital that early. Just offer a peace treaty with Austria when you're close to destroying her and she'll offer everything she have. Now you will have the money to ally CS, or buy shrines for a religion, and so on to boost happiness.

 

[IAmOzymandias]

well, that's what I had done with japan in the previous game, and they just declared war on me twice more.

EDIT: that came out sounding douchey. I do understand that destroying a civ (even though they are the agressor) gives you a negative with other civs, it's just very inconvenient because I know that same civ will stab me in the back first chance they get.

Unless they're the ottomans, for some reason the Ottomans will always be all freindly after they're done getting thier butts kicked.

I think part of the reason I have such a hard time with Emperor is that war seems completely inevitable at some point. I dislike war in Civ, I strongly dislike early wars in Civ, but it seems like no matter what, somebody gets ticked at me for existing.

 

[Syntax Error]

I learned this from Tabarnak's thread: The point of early war is not to cap enemy civs, but to use that war as a clutch to give you a good peace deal. This gives you cash, and luxes you might otherwise not get until, much later for the next 30 turns. Those extras will allow you to grow and build infrastructure, until the next war comes along. Since you also have units, you can send some of them to bully CSes for more gold. As for happiness, you can go as far as -9. Any more and you risk rebellion an you get production penalties.

Also, since war is nearly inevitable, you should:

1. As much as possible, settle on a hill.
2. Settle behind a river if possible.

Rough terrain can delay wars as well, so use that.

 

[Terakahn]

This is kind of related to the problem he had most recently, but how do you avoid 2+ front wars?

Like, I had a game where I was trying to go culturally as America. I had Rome on the west, Korea to the Northeast, Spain to the east, and Celts south. I thought I was ok. Did the 4 city Tradition opener, and I was good. had CBs and Swords to match their pikes and archers, and catapults. I was winning the wars. But they never let up. At one point I had korea and spain both attacking me at the same time. I fend them off, spain wants my full copitulation, and korea gave in. So now spain is still on me but korea made peace. Then the mongols tell me that Rome is coming for me and Celts declare war on me.

I was actually fine with all this combat. I had a couple level 4 minutemen, a ton of level 3 archers, and some cannons. But I find out Korea is a good full age of tech ahead of me and I cant kill him. he's surrounded by water/mountains. I can get in to attack his cities, but with 3 cannons, and riflemen at his nearest city, I was just getting picked off before I had the chance to do any real damage.

Edit: Forgot to mention. I was going to buy up land to block off rome coming at me or surrounding me. But they settled a city 3 tiles away from my most western city. I've heard of forward settling, but damn.

 

[IAmOzymandias]

yeah japan in the first emperor game I mentioned just did that before DoW. Settled 2 tiles away from my CC (I had already grabbed the 3 tiles from expansion so it wasn't a huge issue)

One thing i've basically made a rule is to never settle a city if it's within 6 tiles of another city (for optimal late game worker tiles) and i'm very very picky about the land I settle on. If it's not pretty much perfect, I don't settle it.

 

[Syntax Error]

yeah japan in the first emperor game I mentioned just did that before DoW. Settled 2 tiles away from my CC (I had already grabbed the 3 tiles from expansion so it wasn't a huge issue)

One thing i've basically made a rule is to never settle a city if it's within 6 tiles of another city (for optimal late game worker tiles) and i'm very very picky about the land I settle on. If it's not pretty much perfect, I don't settle it.

You really can't just settle on "perfect" locations. This is because of late game resources: Oil, Aluminum and Uranium. Those perfect locations at the time might not be so perfect considering those resources might not be present.

Don't be too strict with city distance. You have no guarantee that your city will grow to size 36+specialists in any decent game, unless you're Aztecs, which is pretty much par-for-the-course for them.

Jungles aren't nearly as bad as in Civ 4, but your city will take quite a while even if there is a river. Since jungle tiles override hills, it's pretty much a near-guarantee that city will be quite behind unless you rushbuy stuff or use Engineer Specialists or build the Ironworks there. Personally I settle jungles early only when there are luxes I can settle on and at least one banana (rivers are great but not a priority). I can always settle one city there for a resource much later in the game if I absolutely have no other way of getting said resource.

As for early aggression, four archers would be enough. If you manage to ally a Militaristic CS, even better. Use their gifted units as cannon fodder while your citis build other stuff. Also save enough gold to rush buy archers when needed. Get Construction and upgrade them to CB's. They'll be useful like that for a while. Get Civil Service and train a Pikeman or two. Use them for ZOC.

Finally, when defending, take out the melee units within range first. Siege weapons are useless if there's no unit to take the city anyway.

 

[Aoxomoxoa]

I created a mantra for myself to help wean me off the Wonder building train.

Whenever the game tells me that 'XXXXXX has built the YYYYYY', I say it out loud followed by a loud FORRRR MEEEEEE!