Crushing the Babylons

[Choobie]

Hey guys, need your thoughts on this. Unfortunately I tend not to be very strategicly minded. Here is the situation:

Playing on the huge Earth map, started in the Pacific Northwest of the United States. Its now 1480AD or something like that. I am pretty sure that I am the only one to develop gun powder so far, and I almost have metallugry. Nice

The problem: I am still in 6th place or so (out of 17 civs), and the only sources of saltpepper on my continent that I am aware of are in Babylon territory. I have had uneasy relations with them since we first met (they have a problem with putting their crap in my land), and I recently ended a war with them in which I captured 3 of their cities, and they raized one of mine (a very small and unimportant one too). The solution: another war. The military advisor tells me that I outnumber them, as it should be since all my cities are mass producing riders, pikemen, and catapults.

This is only my 3rd game, the first one that I have carried out this far (just got the game, my laptop can't handle C4), and I made the unfortunate mistake of building tons of city improvements that were unnecessary, so it is hard to make gold and because of my army's current size, unrealistic for me to switch away from monarchy (I think...). I'm playing on Warlord (yes, I am ashamed of sucking so badly )

Anyways, the map:

I need those saltpepper resources. If I get those, its goodnight Babylon (and soon after the rest of the civs in the New World).

In the last war I went after Ashur, it just seemed an easy target that might be a good production source if I planted mines on the nearby hills. Bad mistake, I was stalled there (another part of my army took the three cities of his to the north, offscreen).

I am trying to decide what the best strategy would be for taking those saltpepper spots. I have ROP with the Japanese (red, southwest), so I was thinking a quick strike on Ellipi (via Japan's ROP) with a decent sized force to capture the nearby saltpepper, as well as send another larger force directly at Nineveh to lay seige to it. At the rate of my units production, a counter attack seems unlikely (due to the fact that in the last war I destroyed what I think was most of his army, and that was only 3 or so turns ago). Also I think my golden age is going to end in about 5 turns or so (I started the previous war a few about 5 turns after I went into the golden age, the war lasted about 7 or so turns).

Thanks for your thoughts (and sorry for being so long winded)

Also, this is Civ 3 Vanilla with no patches (that I am aware of).

 

[sercer88]

Hi, Choobie.

WELCOME to Civ Fanatics Site!

Whenever you have a specific question like this, it is best to attach a save of the game at the current situation so others can view the game and see what can and needs to be done. Otherwise, all we know is what you told us.

So far, as I can tell from the pic...You seem to have a good sized military, though I'm not sure you need all of those pikemen (unless you were being ambushed by many units at a time, which doesn't usually happen in warlord difficulty...) Also, you are a monarchy government: even in Civ 3 Vanilla, the Republic is still the best government...even in many all-war games.

 

[Choobie]

Well in the last war he counter attacked with some knights by sending them all the way through my nation and hitting cities on the far side (that is how he raized my city) and almost captured another of my cities, thats about when I decided to end the war (as the second city was a major manufactoring city for me). So pikemen are to stop another move like that on the AI's part.

As you can probably tell from the pic, my economy isn't very strong. I was in a republic system before monarchy and my economy was just getting curb stomped (due mainly to the large unit cost I think, in combination with improvement maintanence). Monarchy (mostly) removed the unit cost. I dread the anarchy from trying to switch back

Anyways, when I try and upload a file I get this:

Mao of the Chinese, 1480 AD.SAV:

Your file of 4.05 MB bytes exceeds the forum's limit of 500.0 KB for this filetype.

If it makes a difference, it is a gigantic map with 17 civs

Anyways, download from here: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=KTI9XS1V

You know what I just realized? I could play it out, and then start back from the current save point if I decide I don't like where it is going

I feel like a total idiot now. I'm going to do laundry.

(Oh, and thanks for the welcome!)

Edit: One other thing, how do I make it so that the computer will not automatically assign a new unit/city improvement without first asking me? I am sick of building a rider, and then the computer automatically switches it to a wonder. Yes, my 7 shield/turn city is going to produce a wonder (thinks the computer)

 

[sercer88]

Um...are you using the easy upload system in the posting toolbar? There, you can use a maximum of 10 MB, and your 4.05 MB file is definitely within those requirements (also, regular save files are much smaller than auto save files...)

I cannot download your file the way you have uploaded it...I'm sure you can fit your file on the easy upload system here.

In the meantime...To automatically assign the cities to build what you want, be sure to turn the governor automated production OFF, and on options, select "ask for build orders after building construction" and "ask for build orders after unit construction" (and I usually also have selected "build previously built unit")

As for save and reloading from the same point after a while...that's a good idea for trying new strategies...try and use this to your advantage often (but NOT to reload every time you lose a single battle )

 

[Choobie]

(but NOT to reload every time you lose a single battle )

I would never do that!

I didn't see anything about the easy uploader system. No matter though, I have managed to walk all over the babylons. It was a lot easier than I thought (courtesy Warlord difficulty I imagine). A few turns after the screen shot a lot of nations started going to war, so I took advantage of the situation and used the Japanese and Egyptians to help me (fortunately they went after the island cities, the saltpepper is all mine).

What is the best way to prevent a culture flip? It sounds like the idea is to rush-build a temple (or other culture improvement). Does the number of units you have in a city have any effect on culture flip? How do you know that the city won't flip? What happens to your units in a city when a culture flips? The Babylonians managed to slow me down a little with this

Next question: How do you establish an embassy? Step by step. I obviously have the requirements to do so (as I established one in Japan a loooong time ago), I just can't figure out how to establish a new one. Thanks!

 

[Aceman101]

I guess I'll pitch in.

What is the best way to prevent a culture flip? It sounds like the idea is to rush-build a temple (or other culture improvement).

The best way to stop a culture flip is to conquer the cities that are putting cultural pressure on your cities. The AI builds immense amount of culture on monarch+. But since you are playing warlord, you usually only need a few temples. However, building culture late in the game won't really have much of an effect since the AI probably built lots of temples/libraries, and the culture from city improvements doubles every 1,000 years.

So in your case, it might be too late to stop flips unless you already have as much culture as the AI. And as said, the easiest way is usually by force.

Does the number of units you have in a city have any effect on culture flip?

Yes. You can actually stop culture flips if you put enough ground units in the city. To check how much units you need to stop a city from flipping, download Civ Assist 2.

How do you know that the city won't flip?

If you have enough culture, your cities will usually never flip. Infact, you can actually flip the AI's cities to your civ if you have more culture than them.

What happens to your units in a city when a culture flips? The Babylonians managed to slow me down a little with this

The units, sadly, all vanish in a flip.

Next question: How do you establish an embassy? Step by step. I obviously have the requirements to do so (as I established one in Japan a loooong time ago), I just can't figure out how to establish a new one. Thanks!

Click on the star next to your capital city and a little message should come up. Click build embassy, and then choose the civ you want and embassy with.

It sounds like the war went well. Congratulations on getting the saltpeter.

 

[Choobie]

Yes, cannons are amazing. I think I read somewhere that the AI undervalues them. Good, I like to be underestimated (except in diplomacy issues)

Anyways, thanks for the answers. Throughout the whole game, my culture has been higher than the Babylon's (according to the advisor), so it must have been that the cities were just so close to their capital (most of them had nothing more than a temple in them).

Civ Assist II isn't working on my computer for some reason. I am getting some thing about an "exception that couldn't be handled" followed by a bunch of letter/number combinations. Unfortunately I went for web scripting instead of C#, so I will search around for an answer to that.

Is there a way to see your civ's total culture, as well as other civ's culture?

 

[Aceman101]

Is there a way to see your civ's total culture, as well as other civ's culture?

Yes. Download CRPSuite. It is a utility similar to Civ Assist, but you can also see all the AI's culture and how much they're making a turn, you can also see how much culture you have and how much you're making every turn. Click here to download it. It'll take you to the download page, from which you can download it. When you download it, go to start -> Programs -> CRP Suit -> MapStat. It will tell you a lot about you game. Good luck!

 

[Aabraxan]

Sercer88 and Aceman101 have addressed most of these issues pretty well, but I can't resist the urge to chime in on a couple of things.

. . . . I made the unfortunate mistake of building tons of city improvements that were unnecessary, so it is hard to make gold and because of my army's current size, unrealistic for me to switch away from monarchy (I think...). . . . .

Fortunately, you recognize what all those improvements are doing to your economy. You could either go sell bunches of those improvements, or just remember this for the next game. And if your military is really huge, go clobber someone.

I noticed in the screenshot that you've got a stack of ~13 Riders and 2 cats. Artillery units can be lethal in human hands and I'm a big fan of them. BUT, given the looks of this particular game, at Warlord difficulty, where you're the only one with gunpowder (is that right?), that stack will be more effective without them. The two cats aren't doing you enough good to justify slowing down those Riders. Don't underestimate the power of the extra movement point that the Rider has. If it were 15 catapults and 2 Riders, I'd be singing a different tune. But either pair those cats with other 1-move units, like Medieval Infantry, or disband them and reclaim the shields for building more Riders. And then turn that Stack of Doom loose on the unsuspecting Babylonians.

As you can probably tell from the pic, my economy isn't very strong. I was in a republic system before monarchy and my economy was just getting curb stomped (due mainly to the large unit cost I think, in combination with improvement maintanence). Monarchy (mostly) removed the unit cost. I dread the anarchy from trying to switch back

Generally speaking, you don't want to change governments more than once, unless you're a religious civ. You've already changed twice, so I wouldn't recommend a third switch. As you obviously know, more anarchy isn't desirable. Republic is more fiddly than Monarchy and requires a little more care and attention than Monarchy. As I don't play vanilla, I'll leave the question of "best government" to those who know more about vanilla governments than I, but I will say this: Bear in mind that Republic in Civ 3 vanilla is different than Republic in Civ 3 Conquests. In vanilla, it gets zero unit support (IIUC), while in Conquests, it gets 1/3/4.

Yes. You can actually stop culture flips if you put enough ground units in the city. To check how much units you need to stop a city from flipping, download Civ Assist 2.

While this is true, I find that the number of units required to stop a flip is ungodly huge. It always seems to be so many units that my war efforts would screech to a halt if I actually garrisoned a city with that many.

Is there a way to see your civ's total culture, as well as other civ's culture?

You can see your own culture and that of your closest cultural competitor by pressing F8.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Just from looking at the save, I would:

A) Declare
B) Send Riders to wipe out AI Knights in reach. Cover any Riders that can't retreat to a city with a pike or two.
C) Drop a stack of 3 or 4 pikes and all your cats next to Ninevah keeping your main stack of Riders back in your territory.
D) Make at least one settler back in your territory

On turn #2.

A) Bombard Ashur with cats.
B) Take your uninjured Riders and take Ninevah. It probably has 2, maybe 3 defenders, at most.
C) Move a settler, a few pikes and perhaps some riders onto the saltpeter hill. This may take a turn or two.

When the settler is there:

A) Settle. Voila! You have saltpeter.

 

[Choobie]

ou could either go sell bunches of those improvements, or just remember this for the next game.

You can sell improvements? But yes, my military is perhaps the strongest in the world now. I almost have military tradition, so I can start upgrading to calvary Unfortunately I am no longer the only civ with gun powder.

I'm headed south now to kick the Egyptians off my continent. Many civs are at war with Egypt right now (thanks in part to me), but surprisingly Rome (who is getting its butt kicked by the Egyptians) doesn't want to sign a military alliance with me. The AI is odd...

Oh, and Ur culture flipped AGAIN! GRRR! Its like the third time.

 

[Aabraxan]

You can sell improvements?

Yes. Zoom into the city, right-click the improvement that you'd like to sell and you'll get a pop-up box, which will include the "Sell" option, unless you got the improvement from a wonder.

 

[Choobie]

Sweet. Economic liberation here I come

 

[civverguy]

It's interesting how in my game I was in one of last places until I attacked Babylon. That's probably the same with you.

 

[Lexicus]

Oh, and Ur culture flipped AGAIN! GRRR! Its like the third time.

I'm pretty sure that foreign nationals in those cities increase the chances of flipping. If a city flips more than once, it's usually best to raze it unless it has a wonder. If Ur doesn't have a wonder, try razing it, then have a settler replace the city.

 

[Aabraxan]

. . . . I'm pretty sure that foreign nationals in those cities increase the chances of flipping. If a city flips more than once, it's usually best to raze it unless it has a wonder. . . .

And even if it doesn't flip, don't forget to starve the city down.

 

[scoutsout]

Straight for the jug'lar. Ashur, then Babylon. That will let you experience the AI "turtling" when you take their capitol. Then take some combination of Nineveh and Ur. The rest of the Babylonian cities are small, and won't be able to crank out enough units to hang with well organized stacks of Riders.

Beeline to Military Tradition; save up the gold to upgrade those Riders to Cavalry. Forget about defensive units or Trebs/cannon/artillery until you're ready to invade the other hemisphere in the Industrial Age. Once you wipe out the Babylonians, use the cavalry to run roughshod over the 4 or so countries that share your hemisphere. You're in Monarchy... no sense in remaining at peace.

Though others advise against it... this might be worth a swap to communism if this is C3C...

And one more thing: swap Kagoshima to a Harbor so it can get enough food to grow.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

For a city to flip, you need at least 1 of two things:

1) Foreign nationals in the city
2) Tiles in the fat cross to be in the cultural boundaries of a another civ.

if neither of these things are true, city won't flip (except for propaganda)

Things that make it more likely to flip:
1) resistors
2) Civil disorder
3) City is closer to the other capitol than yours
4) City has more culture from the other civ than you
5) Other civ has more culture overall than you