Cultural assimilation: too easy and too fast?

[aeldrik]

Have a look at history, let's take spain, the UK, France, Tibet, Russia, US....
all this countries show us what happens when smaller areas are occupied. Does the cultural assimilation work as it does in CIV3?
why is it that the basques and catalans still (or again) have they cultural identity and are not spanish.... Why is corsica still not feeling french after centuries of belonging to France, why did Ireland want its independende... all this doesn't fit what we see in the game, meaning for me the game should be adapted...
Now let's look at Russia and China, what was they way for cultural assimilation? Stalin had an effective method (effective sure doesn't mean good): move the people, replace them with russians. What are the chinese doing in Tibet? sending in as many of they own people to mix and replace the tibetan...
The US however is different, it is in my oppinion the only country where cultural assimilation really worked in the past, however I don't know how well it is and will be working now with the newer massive groups of immigrant from South America (someone from LA region there?) but as far As I know, speaking spanish is quite usefull around there....

Now this was for history and reality, so how should it look like in the game?
Maybe this way:
1/Newly added citizens in a city shouldn't have the culture of the nation it belongs to, the culture should be determined by the people living in the city. (for example, if they were 10 pop. in a city, 9 foreign, 1 to the nation, then they should be a 90% chance the new citizen should be foreign)
2/Assimilation should be much much slower (if at all), and also dependent on the form of goverment.
I think they should only be cultural assimilation of citizens if at least 60 % or 70% of the citizens where of one culture, meaning they would be a chance for a citizen of the occupying nation to be assimilated by the "opressed" culture....
3/ When building settlers or workers, one should be able to choose, if they are built from a multicultural city, what culture the worker/settler has (relocation, which might then be forbidden in Democracy and Republic...)

I know the game isn't all about realism, but still, they are no flying cars in it, so I guess it does orientate to reality...

PS: if you want the perfect historical exemple, look at the jews, they distinct culture survived over allmost 1500 years without a country of their own.

 

[anarres]

Just a small point - if you look at assimilation in Tibet, what chance is there of a Chinese imigrant becoming 'Tibetan' in culture? None. Nada. Zero. Chinese authorities are present enforcing Chinese law and culture (alcohol, gambling, etc - things Tibetans were not prone to). The only way to go is Tibetan -> Chinese, and that is happening.

I think I agree that the number of your own nationals in relation to the occupied civ's nationals should be a factor, but still - no way your citizens would convert to the occupied civ's.

 

[aeldrik]

I take you point, this is why goverment should be a factor...
I agree the chance that nationals converting into the occupied CIV should be held very small, but it definitevely happens if they are a minority, through mariages, they might have to learn the language and culture out of conveniance, interest... They are so many people going to foreign countries and staying there, after a while, even if they don't look like locals, they are

 

[Bamspeedy]

1/Newly added citizens in a city shouldn't have the culture of the nation it belongs to, the culture should be determined by the people living in the city. (for example, if they were 10 pop. in a city, 9 foreign, 1 to the nation, then they should be a 90% chance the new citizen should be foreign)

What about size 1 cities going to size 2? 100% chance the next citizen will be the same nationality? Then it will always be 100% unless you join workers into the city to get some variety.

Game play is more important than realism, so you shouldn't have to be bothered by having conquered cities still having a huge number of foreigners in it even after you starve it down (culture flips).

2/Assimilation should be much much slower (if at all), and also dependent on the form of goverment.

Check the editor. Government does play a role.

 

[aeldrik]

Bam:
Yes, or how do you explain that parents of one culture have children of another culture? things don't work that way,... So yes, you would have to bring in foreign people of your culture or wait for some of the locals to get assimilated
if you don't want to have to fear the culture flip, relocation ist your tool, so It would make it even better then now, since you wouldn't have to starve down the cities, which is,( I know it is only a game, but still) moraly not really the correct way

 

[The Last Conformist]

Children having another culture than their parents? Not that uncommon.

A few thousand languages around the globe are currently threatened with extinction because children only learn the national language (or other sociopolitically dominant language), and not their parents' mothertongue. A major driving force for this kind of developments are state-run educational systems, which seldom offer tuition in minor languages. And when a language goes, frequently the speakers as a distinct ethnic group go too.

I think the present system is good enough; it's too minor a part of the game to merit any too in-depth treatment.

What's arguably weird is that Democracies are more likely to assimilate minorities than are Despotistic states; realistically they'd surely be more likely tolerate cultural minorites, not less.

 

[CIVPhilzilla]

Good idea, but it would be very hard to implement effecitively. And you will always have those cruel Commies whiping the foreign population to get a nice little building for themselves.

 

[Atotarho]

I believe that you are mistaking culture for nationality.

I think that the idea in CIV is that a captured person from another Civ, worker or townie, retains their NATIONALITY. You cant make a Tibetan into a Chinese no matter how happy he is or what culture he prefers, its the way he was born.

New people are born within your empire so they belong to you not the Civ you took the city from, this is a form of replacement/importation. When your people are the dominant number and your culture is dominant (over their old one) there is less chance of the old population being able to turn against you (culture flip).

In the cases you specify. I think that you will find that the dominant ethnic group the Basque region is still the Basque people (culture flip). In NI there is a huge split in the community between remaining with England and going back to Ireland (civil disorder which can go either way). In Scotland (another land conquered by England) there has been far greater assimilation and replacement (peace/stability).

I think that the game is set up pretty realisticaly as it is. When you consider the speed at which you zip through 6,000 years you cant really be expected to miromanage everything and stay true to reality in every miniscule aspect.

 

[aeldrik]

sorry Atotarho, but since you agree with my exemples, like the basques, how do you explain them with the way civ works???

 

[The Last Conformist]

Atotarho: What exactly do you mean with 'nationality'? When contrasted with culture, I would expect it to refer to citizenship, but that's clearly not what you mean - all those Tibetans are of course Chinese citizens.

 

[Atotarho]

Originally posted by aeldrik
sorry Atotarho, but since you agree with my exemples, like the basques, how do you explain them with the way civ works???

CIV works fine. While the other Civs Citizens outnumber yours, are unhappy and resisting then there is a good chance of revolt/culture flip. When the people are happy or outnumbered by yours then less chance.

Now I take what you are saying is that when a new citizen is added to a city there should be a chance that it will not be your Civs but it could be the old Civs. But how long does it take to add a new citizen. Sometimes it can take 20 tuns which can equate to 100 years, thats 5 generations.

Conformist - Nationality is where you are born Citizenship is where you live. Yes they are Chinese citizens as any other civs people you conquer are your citizens but they consider themselves Tibetan. Where as new citizens (by birth or transplant) consider themselves Chinese. Thats why a city with a lot of, say, Americans in it that you have taken will go into revolt if you again go to war with America "Stop the aggression against my Mother country". They still consider their nationality American.