Cultural Deity Std 1485AD writeup: REX strategy

[WastinTime]

I hate to steal your thunder, but I just submitted a 1365 AD standard size cultural victory. No Parthenon, so I only had 14 GA's (split 8-6-0) and 1 GS for an Academy. No free Music GA, but I did waste time trying to get it. I only had 2 religions (How do you get 4?) So four cathedrals. If I had gotten 3 religions, the plan was to tech to democracy for a change. Instead I tried something slightly different. I took Printing Press free from liberalism and then traded for Nationalism. So I stopped tech after Liberalism.

I think I had every possible health resource except crab.

 

[jesusin]

Congratulations. I am sure we can get a finish date earlier than 1300AD.

I got 4 religions (and a fifth too late to matter) this game because I declared a state religion very early having a single city of that religion. I don’t know how to read the code, but there must be a rule about sending missionaries out or not. The result of that rule is very different depending on the distribution of religions in your Empire and depending on your declaration of a state religion or not.
Since I don’t build Oracle, AIs do and they use their GP for shrines; that helps religions spreading too.
Other factors that help getting a religion are OB, roads, keeping cities without a religion for a long time, founding yourself; and luck itself, but you already know that.

I am thinking about skipping Print, I have not so many cottages in my games anyway.

Regarding your Academy, would you be able to make a calculation?: Was it worth more or less than 1000 beakers since it was built till you stopped researching? I was convinced an Academy was a mistake, I don't know what to think now.


Well, when GOTM15 is over my new goal will be to tie with your new record a couple of times.

 

[Lexad]

LOL Good for you, you can do better.

 

[WastinTime]

An Academy from a pure culture calculation is a mistake. But I decided that it was more important to win the race to Liberalism (mostly cus I was planning to go all the way to Democracy.) Since I stopped early, it could have been bad for my game. I think I just got a bit lucky that I didn't need 1 more GA and that small boost from the Academy's culture in the capitol helped it finish 2-3 turns earlier.

I actually cottaged my 2nd city a bit. I haven't done that too often. Even with just the capitol cottaged. I think P.Press pays off. It only takes about 6 turns to research.

 

[jesusin]

An Academy from a pure culture calculation is a mistake. But I decided that it was more important to win the race to Liberalism

???? I imagine you mean from a pure science calculation.
And that’s the point, if an Academy gives you less than 1000 beakers in the way to Liberalism, you will be more likely to win the race to Liberalism if you lightbulb half of Education.

I think P.Press pays off. It only takes about 6 turns to research.

Now, I think you are wrong here. 6 turns in Quick equals 27 turns in Marathon, it is a looooong time.

Assuming that:
- After civics changes your capital will generate 500cpt at 100%culture.
- Before civic changes your capital generates 100cpt at 0% culture.
- Printing Press takes 6 turns to research at 100% science.
- There are 10 cottages (towns or almost towns) in the capital.
- Culture multiplier in the capital is 4.
- It took 36 turns since you went 100% culture till you won.

Then
- The effect on the 2nd and 3rd cities is negligible. Researching Print loses 6 turns of culture generation and brings no benefit (no cottages there), but it doesn’t matter since their cpt is around 0 and both cities go beyond the limit thanks to culture bombing.
- If you don’t research Print, you run always 500cpt in the capital and you win in 40 turns.
- If you do research Print, you run 100cpt in the capital for 6 turns and then you run 540cpt for 36 turns for the same result.

So according to my calculation you are 2 turns worst if you research Printing Press. Do the assumed numbers resemble reality?

The conclusion seems to be quite reliable when numbers change. Only if capital output at 100% culture is lower than 400cpt researching Print becomes beneficial.

Of course this is only theory. There are factors not taken into account, like the probability to trade Print for Banking or Economy thus further improving your economy.

 

[WastinTime]

At the time you start P.Press you might have 2 cathedrals, but you either just got Nationalism last turn, or you're planning to trade for it, so you couldn't have Hermitage yet. Even with the capitol's multiplier at 3 instead of 4, it seems you may be right about P.Press not paying off very well. In my game it was definitely the right thing to do because I took it free from Liberalism and traded for Nationalism.

???? I imagine you mean from a pure science calculation.
And that’s the point, if an Academy gives you less than 1000 beakers in the way to Liberalism, you will be more likely to win the race to Liberalism if you lightbulb half of Education.

I see the confusion here. I actually did mean culture calculation. First off, you made a good point, and I think the Academy does produce more than lightbulbing. I usually get the academy around turn 60-65. Even if it were to come up a few beakers short, that's ok because it has other value. I was referring to the culture that the academy gives. It will be 4/turn and grow to 16/turn as you add the multipliers. Sadly, the Academy does not double after 1000 years like everything else. So my point was that the culture from this will never come close to a GA bomb.

 

[jesusin]

I was so sure that an Academy was a waste! With my techpath, the first GP comes late so an Academy is not a good idea.

I have tried your beeline to CoL in two games. In the second one, still unfinished, I could have built a pre 1000BC Academy. By 300AD it would have generated 1400 beakers, not to speak of culture and future culture… I wouldn’t have founded taoism, though. An Academy would also help accelerate the discovery of CS, thus providing yet more beakers through early bureaucracy.

I haven’t got the right way to trade tech when following your techpath. Have to keep trying. That’s the negative part of your techpath, I don’t get so much out of trades when getting Alphabet so late. Also nobody wants to research Drama so no theaters for 2 artists when in slavery; and I get Music veeeeery late. Finally I don’t like building my cottages so late. On the positive side, I get to found 3 religions (so I don’t rely on luck for religion spreading) and manage to have each of them in each of my 3 cultural cities. This is very good for early missionaries and temples; and still better, it gives expanded borders that let you enclose space for future cities. Getting 6 cities in Small maps this way is no problem.

As for the tech path, I have tried CoL-CS with bad results, I am playing your suggested CoL-Alpha-CS now, I am planning to try CoL-Alpha-Drama soon.

I keep on missing on being first to Liberalism. It makes me wonder if I should skip not only Printing Press but also Nationalism. Skipping Liberalism too would be too much for my taste, but I think I should try that once too.

 

[WastinTime]

Also nobody wants to research Drama so no theaters for 2 artists when in slavery

[early religion] gives expanded borders that let you enclose space for future cities. Getting 6 cities in Small maps this way is no problem.

I am planning to try CoL-Alpha-Drama soon.

These clues lead me to believe that you're not getting the joy that is Caste System. You've earned it by getting CoL early, so use it. I rarely, if ever, use slavery. You can get an earlier GS, if you want an academy, since you don't have to build a library. Or skip the GS and just get a quick Artist. Use the culture bomb immediately and you'll steal resources from your neighbor and have plenty of room for future expansion. Maybe even flip one of their cities!

 

[jesusin]

Ummm. Of course I am not doing everything perfectly, it is the very first times I am priritizing CoL. But I am doing what you suggest: first GS in 1000BC, expanded border, artist bombed in the BC, full of space for backfilling, 3 founded religions.

I use slavery to get the cathedrals up and running quickly. I don't stay in slavery much more than the five mandatory turns. How do you build yours?

Now, I am researching/trading-for Music AFTER I know Liberalism and Nationalism. That doesn't seem right to me. I want my Cathedrals built and my whipped population recovered when I go 100% culture.



On a side note, while playing GOTM15 I have realized that the final starvation phase is not so important when not playing Quick. The number of GPP you can get by starving a city is fixed, based on your population. The cost of the next GP is different for different speeds. At Epic speed, the GPP from starvation are marginal, they don't make more than 1 GP difference. At Quick, they can easily make a difference of 3 GP.

 

[WastinTime]

I build/chop all my cathedrals. I don't usually build more than 4 though.
My brain is on the Minor-15 Gauntlet, so I'm having trouble recalling details.

 

[Smirk]

That great leader you get from starvation should rally the people into revolt and overthrow you, their oppressor.

 

[jesusin]

That great leader you get from starvation should rally the people into revolt and overthrow you, their oppressor.

Oh, I am not afraid about that. People wouldn't follow him. They are to weak to stand up, after so much whipping.

I have perfected my technique, I am getting 3 extra GA compared to the usual non-starvation end of the game. I imagine I could get yet some more in nine-city games. In attention to Smirk's advice, I won't pop all of them the same turn, should they join forces and overthrown me.