Culture Flipping?

[Ochylski]

Should culture and the ability to convert people be in Civ4? Don't get me wrong... I love the culture in Civ3, it's a wonderful non-violent way to win the game, and the borders are great. BUT... has this ever happened in Real Life? The only place I can think of is Strasbourg, which is a French city but seems to be more of a German style city (arcitechture and such). All the colonies of the imperial age were rebellious despite what could be argued as the greater "culture" of the imperialist nation (I'm not saying the British have a better culture than the Indians or the Portugese of Africans or Spain of the Incans or whatever). Even when northern France was in Nazi hands, they were actively working against the foreigners. People are tied to each other and not governments, like the Basque separatists in Spain or Canada's Quebec. Only maybe the United Kingdoms combination of Celts and Scots under English rule is the only real cultural domination.

Only when there is the depopulation of natives does a culture inherit land. I doubt the colonists could really have settled if they didn't infect the Native Americans and forcibly migrate (Trail of Tears) the survivors.

And yes, American culture is spread throughout the world... but Arab youths aren't going to invite us to govern them, neither are the Latin American countries nor anyone else. It will make them more agreeable and less likely to wage war on us however. This then returns to the Senate intervening and vetoing war declaration, or citizens 10x more likely to be war weary (all the people who hate Bush anyone?)

I think that a city reverting back to its founder should be kept though. This could help contain a large militaristic empire. What say you?

 

[Telvanni]

How would you explain USA? if it wasn't for all the Europeans, that travelled to America, and founded a new nation. Must be some kind of culture flipping....

 

[warpstorm]

And within a few generations Spanish will be the primary language spoken in the USA.

 

[Himalia]

Cant see that happening. No matter what any statistic may suggest theres another that will suggest otherwise. I think it should stay in the game its fundamentally ok and you said in your own arguement that in some respects it has sort of happened a few time in the real world. So its happened a few times it does not tend to happen all that much in the game as it is at least not on Sid it doesnt. On chieftan i would imagine it happens to the AI alot more.

 

[Urederra]

And within a few generations Spanish will be the primary language spoken in the USA.

I don't see that happening either, and I am a spaniard researching in the USA.

USA is a great country, I am amazed that they are so permissive and helpful with people that speak foreign languages.

What is really true is that in within 2 generations, no more, there will be more people speaking spanish in the USA than in Spain. They won't dance flamenco as well as the spaniards (not me, anyways) but they will dance salsa and other 'hot' dances. That's exporting culture.

I wish the americans could export freedom, democracy and justice to the south american countrys as easy as that. (And not like in Iraq, but that seems to be more difficult to export).

 

[Ochylski]

Telvanni, I covered that, America is now settled by those of European descent because the people who really lived here, Native Americans, were reduced to maybe 5% of their former population. Anybody you see in America is pretty much going to be an immigrant (like I'm the third generation of Polish and Irish/German immigrants). So unless culture flipping is going to be accompanied by your citizens overwhelming the citizens in another civ, it's a little unrealistic. That's why I don't like the spontaneous flip, it's something more deliberate. If spies were brought back then I think they could work over generations to subvert (propaganda) the cities and civilians, though I haven't really thought that idea out. I do strongly support the flipping of a city back to the original founders though.

For it to not flip over it would have to be something similar to what we in America did to the original inhabitants, take their land and rid yourself of the hostiles. In civ, you can starve or station a large garrison.

In Civ3, I starve the population for a while then pop in some settlers and workers. Also, building a worker in the conquered city and moving him over to one of the core cities is another way I migrate my citizens.

But it seems I'm alone in this sentiment. Let me just say, because people like your civ, doesn't mean they will secede and join you. I believe culture should only be used in determining how much resistance the city puts up when conquered (and still borders of course, it works well that way). If there is a weak culture, looking mostly at the city culture and then to the whole civ's, it would be much quicker to assimilate the city and the citizens into your culture.

It should take somewhere around 100-150 years or so to convert the citizens to your civ. In the early moments of the game, this would be easier since the civ has no long history (and turns take 20 years at a time). In later years it would be more difficult (more turns) to convert, but you also can support larger garrisons to ensure there is no flip. The idea is that no civ could easily conquer the world this way. Even a small nation of a couple cities can prosper and resist the juggernaut.


Man, long post...

Edit: oh yeah, and a strong culture also makes it more difficult for a nation to declare war on you, since they admire you so much

 

[apatheist]

Yeah, culture shouldn't cause cities to flip. It should cause unhappiness in lower culture civs and emigration from them to the high culture civs, but as far as we know, there is no emigration in Civ4.

 

[warpstorm]

Now, emigration would be a wonderful solution to the problem.

 

[Urederra]

New Mexico and Arizona will flip back to Mexico, where they really belongs.

 

[Ramalhão]

I wish the americans could export freedom, democracy and justice to the south american countrys as easy as that. (And not like in Iraq, but that seems to be more difficult to export).

Most dictatorships in South America happened because USA wanted them.

I know some countries (like Bolivia) are instable. And as far as I know, Hugo Chaves isn't a dictator, even he tried to be one during the 90's. He was elected and some people like him, as well some people dislike him (common in democracies). One good word we use here to label politicians like him is populista - a politician which does good things for people (to show "he wishes the best for the people") but at the same time does things to benefict himself.

 

[Karaman]

Well, USA are non-democratic to start with! Just watch the TV show "The Awful Truth!" Americans are not free! They depend on their credit reports, insurances! The 14th ammendment is seldom a thing to consider outside court! Blacks have more rights in Holand and Britain for example USA have capital punishment in many states! Well, I dont call this a democracy, I call it fake democracy Come on, even Canada is more Democracy! If you want an example of democratic country, become a Switzerland citizen and experience a true Democracy!

 

[Slyk]

Personally, I hate the culture 'flip'. I don't think the baseline is ideal. Rather over time it would be one thing if the population of the border cities could slowly alter to include people of the neighboring lands. Instead of the whole city just throwing themselves over. That to me, is unrealistic and many times I turn off culture to prevent this. I prefer to use culture to grow my borders and nibble away at border tiles. At least if the 'flip' were a slow process you would be able to monitor it and add culture to that city if possible to reverse the trend....or close your borders to immigration...another possible answer?

 

[Ochylski]

Please, we all know any government has faults, but keep relevant to the topic.

And yeah, the emigration of your highly cultured citizens is exactly how I was thinking of it. And being able to see how converted your citizens is key, otherwise you just can't resist properly. The whole trade network connections through harbors or airports or roads is key. Any kind of shutting down immigration would require no connections. Quotas can be put on immigrants, but the US knows that doesn't always work and DPRK can't keep their people leaking out.

Maybe if you have the largest culture, there should be a token citizen in every metropolis (cities over size 12 or something) to help sway public opinion in your direction, like during wars.