Custom Units...

[sheerin]

okay, firstly I'd like to apologise if this has already been mentioned.

Okay, I don't know about you guys but I've always felt is was rather dumb that every nation had the same units (except of course for the special units which weren't *that* much different than the rest).
In the real world the British Swiftsure SSN is different than the Russian Akula which is in turn different than the PLAN's Han SSN. Same goes for surface ships, the Canadian Halfiax FFH has different capabilities and different design specs than the Australian Anzac FFH.
I've been thinking why not introduce this into the game, where you get to design (well, to a certain extent) the type of major unit you build.
For instance if you develop a DDG you could design it to lauch cruise missles, which would then affect something else (say the overall movement of the vessel).
Or you could build a class DDG with a primary role of Fleet Defense (like the American Arleigh Burke AEGIS ships).


I'm not a programmer so I have absolutely no idea how, or even this would be feasible.

 

[mitsho]

That's just too complex and complicated to be introduced for 6000 (or more!) years of human history in such a computer game. And the producers said they want to keep the complexity of civ4 at about the same level as civ3.

sorry, mitsho

 

[Colonel]

its to complex for something that late in the game, but i have played a game that allows you to design your ships not to complex but for this game it would be to complex

 

[Mewtarthio]

You mean something like Empire Earth, where you could research five specialized upgrades (eg Attack, Hit Points, Speed) for each family of units?

 

[sheerin]

damn, figured as much,

 

[Noldodan]

They actually had this thing in SMAC (Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri), and people liked it a lot. Dunno why they cut it from Civ 3...

 

[sheerin]

It makes sense, but I guess since it would only kick late in the game it wasn't worth writing the script for.
Of course it could apply most units, like for Archers you can make accuracy an important part of their training and but their rate of fire would be reduced...

I also believe that if this option were available then it would make espionage a little more important, just like it was during the last hundred years.

 

[Gelion]

why does it occur to you that units can only be designed in the Idustrial age or later? There are so many ways to design units in the ancient age. I'll be referring mostly to AC so sorry if you haven't played it.
For example you can have about 10 chassis (bases): human, 2 wheel (and a horse in 2 first ages), 4 wheels, horse, small ship, big ship, plane, submarine, helicopter and maybe some more.
Each unit you design should have defence, attack capabilities, special abilities and for some power.
Attack and defence should depend on the resources you own and techs you know. For example if you discovered Iron Working (gives you iron) and for example warrior code (gives you leather) you can design a light swordsman:
give a human stasis an iron cuirass (def. 3), sword (attack 2 for ex) and leather gauntlets and greaves (def 1) therefore combined defence is 2. Special abilities for example "mountain people" (like alpine in Civ 2). Tanks for example will have different engines and different shells/weapons. Submarines can be nuclear, hydrogen-based and so on.
Most units should be predefined like they where in AC. You can make Casebombs (nukes) like in real life or missile tanks.
This can be implemented as it was already done is Alpha Centauri. Why can't Civ 4 have all the best features of AC?
Remember Civ is about moddling the hisotry not repeating it!

Please give me your feedback.

 

[sir_schwick]

Foreword:
I personally liked the UW in SMAC, but it had major downfalls and reasons that it would not work well in Civ.

Cons:
1) In SMAC, managing your custom designs and each cycle of upgrades took at least 10-15 minutes each cycle. Considering that you had these upgrades often, it made the UW a very tedious feature.
2) The evolution of weapons and armour in SMAC is much more even then in Civ. You would have to add 4 or 5 times the current number of units to make intermediary units.
3) Civ should not be about engineered and planned designs. The design process is assume to happen by itself by people who are not the player. Having said that, research should be blind for the same reason, the state did not know the future.

Solutions:
1) Streamline the interface considerably. I understand SMAC was the first try at it, but now they know what to do.
2) Instead of components, technology should gradually improve current units. There should be a few unit types, with a couple added as the technology becomes avaliable.
3) For tactical flexibilty, you should be able to build variants of standard unit types.

Afterword:
Unfortunately Brian Reynold's no longer works for Firaxis, and most of the team that worked on SMAC is gone. The new team did not take love to this idea so I doubt it will appear in any form.

 

[troytheface]

there is a definate eastern vs western "look" in so far as graphics that seems like it would not be hard to implement...half the civs eastern half western...

 

[Gelion]

Like in AC some combinations should give a predefined units like Samurai for human+sword+leather cuirass+extra moral for Japan unit...

 

[sir_schwick]

In my personal opinion, a component method to unit design goes against the atmosphere of the game. The unit workshop, as seen in SMAC, is not a workable model for Civ 4. Here is the reason: Soren said that the complexity of Civ 3 was about right. Thus, if you complicate one part, you must simplify another.

Here is my idea for how unit and unit evolution should be handled. There would be unit classes that would exist throughout the game. Some of these classes would not appear unitl the appropriate requesites existed. Cavalry refers to any mobile platform, including tanks. These would be the classes with A/D/M or B/R:
Heavy Infantry - Moderate/Moderate/Foot
Medium Infantry - High/Low/Foot
Light Infantry - Moderate/Low/Fast Foot
Defender - Low/High/Foot
Skirmisher - Low/Moderate/Fast Foot
Heavy Cavalry - High/Low/Mounted
Medium Cavalry - Moderate/Moderate/Mounted
Light Cavalry - Low/Low/Fast Mounted
Heavy Artillery - High/Short
Medium Artillery - Moderate/Medium
Light Artillery - Low/Long
Transport - Low/Low/Moderate
Corvette - Low/Low/Fast Low/Short
Frigate - Low/Meidum/Fast Low/Short
Destroyer - Medium/Low/Fast Medum/Short
Light Cruiser - Medium/Medium/Normal Low/Medium
Heavy Cruiser - High/Medium/Normal High/Medium
Battleship - High/Medium/Normal High/Long
Dreadnought - Medium/High/Slow High/Long
Carrier - Low/Medium/Normal
Submarine - High/Low/Fast
Missle Submarines - Low/Medium/Normal
Air Superiority - High/High/Medium Very Low/Aircraft
Heavy Fighter - High/Medium/Medium Moderate/Aircraft
Escourt Fighter - Medium/Medium/Long Low/Aircraft
Light Bomber - Low/Medium/Long Moderate/Aircraft
Medium Bomber - Low/Medium/Long High/Aircraft
Heavy Bomber - Low/Medium/Moderate Very High/Aircraft
Transport Plane - Low/Low/Long
Transport Helicopters - Low/Low/Long
Attack Helicopters - High/Low/Medium
Conventional Missles
Nuclear Missles

As technology advances, each class gets some upgrades. If you have the option toggled, you can choose what the upgraded unit looks like. If you do not have the option toggled, the computer decides for you. Notice the absence of ARchers and such. Since ranged ability does not make a difference, you can make some of the units ranged, just for the heck of it. Occasionally you will be asked about special upgrades the units can aquire. Also, when the appropriate techs become avaliable, you can also build variants of the types. Variants include 'Amphibious', 'Para-dropped', 'Assault'(Higher Attack), 'Police'(Martial Law), 'Insurgent'(can capture roads), 'Geurilla'(Considered no nationality, but reduced stats), etc. Then you can build Paratrooper Light Infantry. Also, each time the unit is upgraded, you can choose the name of the unit.

 

[troytheface]

my forever complaint is the air progression...it would be nice if it was bi planes /bi plane bomber /Blimps then fighters/bombers (paratroop planes)
then jets/jet bombers(helicopts) then maybe even Spacestation(sattelite)/Shuttle (as they are actual tech) tho i don't know where u'd put the spacestation(sattelite) graphically. Anything to spice up the air war would be welcome and the earlier the better. I suggest making the land units only armies which would tone down the massive amounts of individual units moving around.
Air Squadrens (sp?) would be nice as well and would relieve the tedium of bombing. Fleets , same thing, but u could have individual units -(troops/planes/ships ) enter or leave this set up -army, squandern, fleet-at anytime.
and maybe have it where ur pilot parachutes out once in awhile and gets captured and it comes up in the diplo. like i offer "peace ...30 gold,
captiain bickmock , and Thebes"

 

[Stid]

nice idea specially the one from sir schwick and it would certainly change the game alot and would make u think about what units would be suitable for certain scenarios n it shouldnt be too complex - for us anyway. uve gotta remember the computer cant adapt to situations like us (well some of us) and more than usual they wouldnt use this to their advantage at all.i mean they cant even make sea landings yet.if they've got the inteligence of a 10yr old in civ4 then yea go ahead bt i dont know...

 

[sir_schwick]

nice idea specially the one from sir schwick and it would certainly change the game alot and would make u think about what units would be suitable for certain scenarios n it shouldnt be too complex - for us anyway. uve gotta remember the computer cant adapt to situations like us (well some of us) and more than usual they wouldnt use this to their advantage at all.i mean they cant even make sea landings yet.if they've got the inteligence of a 10yr old in civ4 then yea go ahead bt i dont know...

The main reason I suggested the same classes stay throughout the game has a few facets. Thank you fro the compliment BTW.

1) It will eliminate the gross jumps between units that exist currently. This might even leave room to put in rules that prevent
2) It woudl be simple to program tactics if they computer always dealt with classes, rather then Swordsmen are good infantry, Knights are middle age unit. I think it could be programmed, the AI in MTW does it pretty well with way more units.
3) You could now make UUs based on class, rather than individual unit. This would be more like it is in Rise of Nations, which I enjoyed. It would also put the Hoplite and the Legionaire were they belongs, Hoplites in Heavy Infantry and Legionaires in Medium Infantry.

Having said all that, I understand your hesitation considering how stupid the AI was.

my forever complaint is the air progression...it would be nice if it was bi planes /bi plane bomber /Blimps then fighters/bombers (paratroop planes)
then jets/jet bombers(helicopts) then maybe even Spacestation(sattelite)/Shuttle (as they are actual tech) tho i don't know where u'd put the spacestation(sattelite) graphically. Anything to spice up the air war would be welcome and the earlier the better. I suggest making the land units only armies which would tone down the massive amounts of individual units moving around.
Air Squadrens (sp?) would be nice as well and would relieve the tedium of bombing. Fleets , same thing, but u could have individual units -(troops/planes/ships ) enter or leave this set up -army, squandern, fleet-at anytime.
and maybe have it where ur pilot parachutes out once in awhile and gets captured and it comes up in the diplo. like i offer "peace ...30 gold,
captiain bickmock , and Thebes"

No to the officer idea, mainly because Civ is not Total War. As for battlegroups, I would prefer seeing the ability to use battlegroups to fight and move. You would still keep the LIght Infantry and Light Cavalry seperate for scouting and such.

As for the air unit complaint. In my system that evolution woudl happen naturally, as the appropriate techs are discovered.

As for the space system. This is a throw-back to SMAC, which I would not mind at all.

 

[crimson238]

I think that perhaps the customization of units would get tedious after awhile. That being said, I do think that in so much as unit diversity goes there should be more. I'd like to see more ships (i mean my PTW doesn't even have a standard cruiser in it.. let alone a jet bomber...) and more air craft. Certain air craft that are carrier based and certain aircraft that cannot be carrier based.. certain ships that can bombard and some that cant (in modern age) (in my old civ 2 gold game i created a PT boat unit.. it was a sub so i couldn't attack anything on land.. but they AI in there loved em lol.)

 

[sir_schwick]

I think that perhaps the customization of units would get tedious after awhile. That being said, I do think that in so much as unit diversity goes there should be more. I'd like to see more ships (i mean my PTW doesn't even have a standard cruiser in it.. let alone a jet bomber...) and more air craft. Certain air craft that are carrier based and certain aircraft that cannot be carrier based.. certain ships that can bombard and some that cant (in modern age) (in my old civ 2 gold game i created a PT boat unit.. it was a sub so i couldn't attack anything on land.. but they AI in there loved em lol.)

I agree that customization of civ units would get boring, considering their are not a ton of special abilities, etc. Also, since the model is always quality over quantity(even though they need to fix ), there is no reason to design cheaper units that are not as quality as a more expesnive alternative.

The classes would not be customizable, except every time their is a major shift in technology that changes how war is fought. When these nexuses occur, you get to choose what kind of unit that class will be till the next nexus. These choices would determine how the unit evolved and whether its stats were stronger later or earlier. I will explain further, but remember, you make this choice maybe three or four times per game per land unit class, a lot less for sea units, and two or three per air unit. THat is roughtly 40-45 decisions per game, or one every 10 turns.

Here are some of the nexuses for various classes. The first nexus is when the class first becomes avaliable. Also, I am ignoring naval units because I really ahven't thought out the major evolutions in naval warfare:
Beginning of Game(Light Infantry)
Bronze Working(Defender, Skirmisher)
Iron Working(Heavy Infantry, Medium Infantry)
Horseback Riding(Medium Cavalry, Light Cavalry)
Mathematics(Medium Atillery)
Currency(Heavy Cavalry,LIght Artillery, Heavy ARtillery)

Gunpowder(Heavy Cavalry, Medium Cavalry, Light Cavalry, Heavy Infantry, Medium Infantry, Light Infantry, Defender, Skirmisher)
Metallurgy(Light Artillery, Medium Artillery, Heavy Artillery)

Replaceable Parts(Heavy Infantry, Medium Infantry, LIght Infantry, Defender, Skirmisher, Heavy Artillery)
Motorized Transport(Heavy Cavalry, Medium Cavalry, Light Cavalry, Medium Artillery, Light Artillery)

When these nexuses occur, you get prompte on each unit type what kind of unit you want for that class. This is basically a choice of when in you want the unit to be most effective. Think in term of best early, best middle, or best late. Some approaches to choosing might be if you need good Medium Infantry now, but make your LIght INfantry better in the middle so you can continue the war effort at full effectiveness when your Medium Infantry is not so relatively powerful anymore.

Some examples of this.
LIght Infantry - This is the only unit class you can build without prequesite techs. You do not have to make the difficult decision of what kind of unit until you start building. THis way you can explore with your free Scout everyone gets to start the game and determine if you need early attack capability.
Good Early= Archer->Heavy Archer->Crossbowmen->Arbalesters
Good Middle= Dartmen->Spearthrower->Javelinmen->Heavy Javelinmen
Good Late= Warriors->Ceremonial Warriors->Light Swordsmen->Axemen
If you see an opponent you need to take out quickly, you can go the Arhcer route. If you anticipate an Ancient era war, Javelins could be very useful, although Dartmen are not quite as useful as archers. If things look calm, you may want the armour piercing Axemen and Light Swordsmen on your side, but do not rely on the warrior to do anything but die.