Damn Dips. How Do I Defense Against Them?

[SlowwHand]

I hate the power Diplomats have.

How do I defense against city bribe?
Lots of money and happy citizens?

What about tech theft?
No relieve in sight?

Post stacked units around cities?
Especially in Deity, won't the unrest kill me?

Somebody tell me, because I really want to know.
It's the weakest spot in my game, and I want to improve if I can.

I'm talking MP, not SP (snooze play).

 

[Smash]

In short,against a determined intelligent player there is no way to stop them from doing something with dips.

Dips/spys can defend against theft but not really practical to station 2 or 3 in each city.Even then they are not 100% effective

Lots of cash and better governement.Only Democracy can stop the city bribe but you can make it very costly by having courthouses and cash.Commie citys count as no more than 10 squares from the cap so it can be less attractive to bribe distant small cities.AFAIK happies don't have an effect.Size and quality do though.

You could build forts and stack units to try and block but your best bet is try to nail them before they come in.This is tough depending on how determined your opposition is.2X moves don't help the situation either.Watch the shores.....

Another idea is to do unto others as they do unto you.Start sabotaging and what not while proclaiming you will increase it if some cease and desist agreement is not worked out.Wouldn't work against me but you never know.

If it looks like the game will go on for some time,then let them steal early.The theft by a diplomat sets a flag that does not allow further tech theft from that city.

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

Originally posted by Smash:
your best bet is try to nail them before they come in.

This is by far the best way I have found to take care of it. Kill anything that can transport troops.

You can line up troops on shore so they can't even land also. Or change the terrian of the coast the forests. That will only allow him to unload, not move into your city.

Posting troops outside of your city won't hurt you in a Democracy as long as you have them in forts and they are within 3 squares of a city.

 

[Exile]

Slow, there is no defense against these units and they are far too powerful to be realistic. They heavily unbalance the game and make multi-play a farce. Stealing techs is fine, poisoning water supplies is fine, but bribing cities, units, and industrial sabotage make these units way too powerful. Why build anything else? If enemy units get near you, buy them. If you need more cities, buy them. If you find yourself in a war, buy your enemies. If you can't buy them because they're in a democracy, then destroy all the improvements in their cities and watch them all go into disorder. Half a dozen spies or diplos can, in a single turn, destroy as many improvements. Try to imagine this in the real world. 6 guys go into a city. The next day, the bank, cathedral, temple, barracks, stock market, and city walls all disappear. Add to this the fact that spies and diplos cost nothing to maintain, are incredibly cheap considering their powers, and don't cause unrest when outside the cities where they were built, and you have the perfect unit.

Why build anything else?

Improvements? Why? When a single spy/dip can destroy it with no cost. Units? They better go around in twos, or they will soon belong to somebody else.

It's ridiculous.

Try scenarios.

Exile

 

[allan]

I too think they need to modify their role some (see threads in "Suggestions for CivIII)--at least do away with the "buying cities" function, I know of NO parallel whatsoever in the real world. I won't even do it against the AI (I've never played an MP game, but I suppose in those games you have to or it'll be done unto you, whereas the AI doesn't seem to try buying my cities outright)--if I can't take a city fair and square, I won't take it. Just a matter of honor for me, I guess....

(BTW, besides eliminating buying cities, I also suggested for CivIII that they have an "Intelligence Agency" minor wonder ("minor wonders" are something that every civ can build for itself) which would make the city that built it totally impervious to spies and dips, and give friendly spies in other cities an increased chance at thwarting enemy spies (say 50% more, so 60% for non-vets and 90% for vets).) SOMETHING substantial to defend against these little rats....)

 

[allan]

I will admit to buying units with spies, though--especially those partisans that surround a city I just took by force....

 

[Knight-Dragon]

The idea in buying a city is that you are providing money to dissidents in that city to raise a revolution and overthrow their oppressors (and join your civ). So you are not 'buying' the city - you are providing financial support to rebels to topple the governing power in that particular city. However this is not that simple to use in a game, I find. In my latest game, I try to buy a fundamentalist city of 8 in population and they ask for a bloody 8000 plus in gold! And that city is on an island and far away fr their capital city. Usually I'll capture the capital of an opposing civ before considering buying cities so that the price will be more manageable.

 

[allan]

Like the U.S. government's orchestration of Panama's succession from Colombia, so we could get control of the canal site--okay, that's about the only instance of something like this where we ended up getting territory by starting a revolt (or did the U.S. have anything to do with Texas' succession from Mexico?). Of course, we've bought our share of puppet dictators from Guatemala to Cuba to Chile, but they still remained sovereign....

Anyway, I suppose I can swallow that.... But subversion involves more than just sending a spy in with some money--there at least should be a chance that the effort will simply fail (the government will suppress the rebellion), and you waste your money--chances depending on the happiness of the people at the time, maybe.

Add a little risk factor to this spy function, just like some of the other functions--else its use can become too formulaic, too predictable, and thus boring and silly....

I also proposed that civIII make captured spies give info of some kind to a capturing civ--either a one-turn view of enemy military or the remote chance of getting a tech themselves--assumed gotten through deep interrogation....

There need to be more risks of failure and consequences--just like in real life....

[This message has been edited by allan (edited July 02, 2001).]

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Allan, I agree with all your points on chgs for Civ3 but maybe we shld continue this thread in a Civ3 forum? I remember one time, one moderator has to step in to keep us from being carried away..... We keep posting about Civ2 in a Civ3 forum.
I like your idea that spy operations shld have a chance to fail and there shld be a penalty to failure. However I think in Civ2, that has been provided for (sort of) if you have a spy stationed in that particular city where the enemy spy is performing its operation. Apparently you can't counter an enemy spy op w/o having a spy unit against it.

 

[allan]

As for the fundy government's city costing 8000 to bribe, I believe the cost is a function of the amount in the enemy civ's treasury (and those fundies can have a sh*tload of cash from all those Jim and Tammy Bakker shows, etc.), the type of gov't (democracy being a no-go), amount of corruption (fundy and commie having very minimal amounts that show up as 1 after about 50 trade, and not dependent on capital distance) and whether or not the city is already in disorder. I may be wrong, and don't have the exact formula at any rate.... Anybody?

[This message has been edited by allan (edited July 02, 2001).]

 

[allan]

I don't know how it goes for unit prices--but one time my Mongol republic started pummeling Viking cities one by one after they sneak-attacked me, and after each city captured the price of the partisans kept getting lower and lower.... The Vikes were fundy, and at first their price was quite high and not worth it--but when they got down to the 200-300 range I bought a bunch of them to stuff my new cities and fortresses with, so I could continue the push without their movement interference....

The function may be related directly to the treasury, at least for non units like partisans (what I usually buy, to clear them from the area without wasting shots).

Oh, when trondheim fell, that's when the price REALLY hit the floor--so it also has to do with whether or not there's a capital (even in corruption-free fundy)....



[This message has been edited by allan (edited July 02, 2001).]

 

[Knight-Dragon]

The price is dependant on how far that city is from its capital. So no capital=price drops like hell. There are other factors like those that you have listed down. City size, govt type, no of improvements, no of units in that city etc.

 

[allan]

Is it actually distance from capital, or corruption (which is a function of capital distance, type of gov't, order or disorder, presence of courthouse, etc.). I forgot, city size makes the price higher. I didn't know about number of improvements--do "happy" ones (cathedrals, colloseums, police, etc.) help more than others? I suppose a higher number of units (I also didn't know that was in the equation) would make the price go up too?

Does anyone have the exact mathematical formula for city OR unit prices? I'm just curious--mostly for prevention (I never buy cities myself, since at least in prince level the AI doesn't do it to me and I think of it as a hollow victory, but I sometimes buy units).

[This message has been edited by allan (edited July 02, 2001).]

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Oh but at deity level, they do buy cities, even from each other. I think the AI civs got more cities thru purchase than outright conquest since as we all know, their attk AI is horrible.
I don't know the actual computations on the cost of a city. Just general observations fr years of playing deity lvl games. I find that when I launch a massive invasion into AI territory, bringing along a few spies to buy cities can really speed up the conquest.

 

[SlowwHand]

Having a spy in the city helps, much more than a diplomat.
But I'm talking about diplomats, in MP right now.

Yes, making spies and diplomats less powerful in Civ III is one of my bigger hopes.

I absolutely despise playing a game with who I find out goes dipping solely.

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[Archbob]

Stack units in forts around your city to catch Dip before they strike. If they are getting too bad then I suggest converting to democracy.

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[allan]

SKM:

"Oh but at deity level, they do buy cities, even from each other. I think the AI civs got more cities thru purchase than outright conquest since as we all know, their attk AI is horrible."

Yeah, I was afraid of that.... Probably starts in king level, too (sooner or later I'll have to get my feet wet in that level). It's stupid (sorry for my persistent ranting on this)--you build up a powerful crackerjack defensive force, only to see it bought by a bunch of backward weaklings.... I'll bet the AI will REALLY piss me off at the higher levels, then.... Oh well, I guess I have to learn the finer points of managing a democracy--I'm usually either republic or commie in the endgame now (sometimes I go fundy after the spaceship, and go for large conquests before it lands, for population points).

 

[Exile]

At the risk of making a novel suggestion;

Civ2 is a very flexible game. I learned early on that if there was some aspect that didn't suit me--change it. That's what scenarios are all about. And scenarios can be extremely complex or extremely simple.

Here's an extremely simple one.

1.) start on a random world or whatever world you enjoy playing on.

2.) Hit the cheat button when the game actually starts.

3.) Hit the edit button and toggle the scenario button. Give it a simple name. "A" will suffice.

4.) Use the unit editor to eliminate the diplomats and spies. Simply adjust the tech prerequisite to "no" for both units.

5.) Go back to the cheat menu, and "Save as scenario."

6.) Now, exit the game.

7.) Now, Begin scenario. Choose the "A" folder from the scenario folder. It'll be there.

8.) Procede to play a completely normal game, with one important exception. NO DIPS or SPIES.

9.) Repeat this simple process whenever you want to play without these extraordinarily powerful units.

After all, the flexibility of the game means that we can re-shape it to please our own aesthetics and tastes. Why not do it?

Salutations,
Exile