Dan the Man? Where for art thou?

[Mike C]

I am beginning to see yet another round of feet kissing after Dan has posted what skimpy information he is "allowed" to tell us. People spewing out crap that we should be more "appreciative" or "supportive"

1) We shouldn't be appreciative of anything. WE PAID MONEY FOR A PRODUCT THAT WASN'T FUNCTIONING AS ADVERTISED. No ifs, ands, or buts.

2) It is quite obvious that the airsuperiority bug, my biggest gripe especially in light of the fact it wasn't patched promptly, was a result of LACK OF TESTING. Yes, bugs are an unfortunate way of life in the computing industry. Hell, even I know nothing is bug free, but the rate of failure of this product is UNACCEPTABLE. If I was to program a application that I promised a client would display a set of results and didn't, guess what? I would get fired. I wouldn't get fired if I told them there were bugs that needed to be worked out and if they chose to go ahead with deploying the software with the limitations then fine. BUT ALTEAST I TELL THEM AND NOT GIVE THEM THE COLD SHOULDER OF KNOWN ISSUES. Firaxis has done none of those.

3) I would find it a lot easier to swallow if Firaxis would update their friggin website once in a while with a known bug list and update it once in a while on what has been fixed, even if the bug patch doesn't come out for another 2 weeks. IT IS ABOUT KEEPING YOUR CUSTOMERS/CLIENTS IN THE LOOP. I am not asking about updated features or features I didn't like and such. I am asking about the state of airsuperiority and precision bombing and etc.

4) It is not merely "a game" as some idiot suggested. This is a product we PAID MONEY FOR. It is not some freeware I downloaded off the web nor was it a game of pickup hockey where I played with a bunch of idiots. In both those cases, I wasted time. Here I WASTED MONEY. Hell, how would you feel if the cable TV cut out on you and when you phoned the company, they told you to chill out, it would get fixed in a week and that it was JUST CABLE TV?

Bottom line, Firaxis has done a crappy job of keeping customers AND I STRESS customers informed of the progress of the patch and known issues. I am not expecting a 24 hour bug fix list. What I AM EXPECTING is once every week or even every 2 weeks they tell us, "We are working on this".

I am also not placing the blame soley on Firaxis's feet. I also blame Infogrames for putting pressure on shoving the product out the door. Why don't they have a representative here? Why is Firaxis getting hung out to dry when there are indications that it was Infogrames that pushed the game out the door?!

 

[Bugg]

Mike C all this game promises is"that the Software is free from substantial errors or defects that will materially interfere with the operation of the Software as described in the Documentation." If you feel this game has substantial errors you have a 90 day warranty, which will allow you to get your money back.
As to keeping people in the loop, there was a chat that was publicized that discussed what they were trying to fix with the patch. If you read the transcripts then you knew that the patch was supposed to be released at the end of November.
As to making a list of known bugs, we all know why they aren't doing that . If they made a list of all the bugs they know about and post it, you guys will flame them if it is not in the patch. They listed it but they didn't correct it. Whine Whine Whine.
As to the timeliness of the patch I hear complaints that other companies fix their bugs quicker. Maybe that is true but How big is this game? Don't we need about 500 MB free hard drive space. That's right we do, so this game is larger than most. I didn't say the largest. So I would expect it to take longer.
As to the air superiority you are assuming that they didn't know about it, due to a lack of testing. This was a feature that we didn't have in Civ II, so maybe they just couldn't get it to work in time.
My last point. Most web sites are used for advertising and promotion. They are supposed to contain positive messages. When the patch is ready I'm sure it will say something like "Good news civ lovers a new Civilization III update is available, download here. Isn't that what Microsoft does?

 

[Dark Sheer]

Originally posted by Ghengis Brom
I have, and I fully understand why Firaxis is not giving details on whats in the patch. As Dan stated, in process of developing software it sometimes necessary to change or entirely remove features which were planned or implemented in the beginning. Ultima Online is constantly releasing patches for their game and in the past had made a habit of promising or eluding to certain changes which never came to be. This did nothing but infuriate the player community. I'm just glad Firaxis announced they are working on the patch and gave a tenative release date. That's a lot better some other companies have done *cough* Origin *cough*.

Right on the mark!!:shotgun:

I have been playing Ultima Online (And still am after 4 years ) and I couldn't agree better with you here. My only hope is that Firaxis' patch is hard coded into the exe files and give us a better editor. I did hate to start making tweaks into the mod file again if they decide to give us a new mod file.

 

[slothman]

Basically, I paid money for a game that I can and want to play. Whether or not I can return it, the game is currently unplayable. For me at least, the showstoppers of sudden disorder and too much corruption. I couldn't even play until the modern age to test the air superiority bug. They should something more than just tell us "Please wait. A patch will come soon." A list of known bugs, bugs which will be fixed in the patch, or at least a small patch to fix some bugs. I am also assuming that all patches, except maybe multiplayer since that could be a different game, will be downloadable and not cost anything. Also sometimes a patch that fixes some bugs but creates more might be reasonable, but that is debatable They shouldn't have even released a game with showstoppers, both preventing the game from being played at all and from allowing it to be fun. It doesn't really matter if it Infogrames or Firaxis's fault. The game still has bugs. I have decided to give them a deadline of Christmas for a patch that will fix everything I require or I will not buy from either company again. I personally hope they will be fixed soon. The game could be good but right now it's unplayable for me.

 

[dannyevilcat]

Hell, how would you feel if the cable TV cut out on you and when you phoned the company, they told you to chill out, it would get fixed in a week and that it was JUST CABLE TV?

Why I'd be soooo mad I'd rant and rave about it for the next month on a cable T.V. fan forum, of course!

Look MikeC, it's fine... you aren't getting what you want for your money and you ain't the only one apparently, but when you DO get the patch, is all this huffing and puffing really going to make you feel like you've accomplished something? I mean I see you kickin' around other threads so it's obvious you're still playing the game. I'm not trying to flame you, I'm only trying to calm tou. Like aloe.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(wow. I DO feel better...)

 

[ainwood]

I'd like to see the patch released, just to stop me having to read everybodys' rantings.

Get Over It! Whilst I am annoyed at some aspects, I can live with it! I had to read threads from Americans about how great the game was whilst I waited for it to reach England.

The patch will be here eventually. Patience is a virtue.


Still, then there will be the inevitable "why didn't they include this" threads.

I saw one particularly appalling thing: "I want the editor to allow me to do anything I want. If I want to turn the manhattin project into a small wonder, I can. If I want to build a new improvement to reduce culture flips I can".

Indeed. Maybe they would like the editor to let you turn the game into a first-person-shooter, or flight simulator as well.

 

[slothman]

I saw one particularly appalling thing: "I want the editor to allow me to do anything I want. If I want to turn the anhattin project into a small wonder, I can. If I want to build a new improvement to reduce culture flips I can".

ainwood: Is this a direct quote? I said something like allowing small wonders do things like large and so forth, so you probably disagree with me. I'm just wondering why you don't want the editor to do certain things. Yes civ isn't a FPS but it would seem that more modifying would be better. Appearently not in the first patch. But it would be good at sometime.

P.S. Most of us, me at least, want the patch to fix bugs that are known to exist. So a patch would definately be for the better. Unless I just misinterpreted your post about not wanting a patch soon.

 

[ironfang]

If you dont think complaining, or being active about wanting what you deserve, is "constructive", then just sit there and do nothing. Take your 2% raises, sit in your cube, and take what is given to you. If you want things to change, sometimes you need to act.

Sometimes you need to put pressure to get results.

ironfang

 

[Mike C]

Originally posted by dannyevilcat

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(wow. I DO feel better...)

See, its very threaputic!

 

[WarandPeace]

Hehe.

What's wrong with criticism and a little kick ass to get things going around here. Some of us like the game the way it is, that's great. Others want the game to be better than it is, who has a problem about that?
We all like to sound off our opinions about things, but its simply not fair to judge others' lament just because you don't feel the need for it.

The problem is there, and any less of that recognition would be a lie to one's own conscience.
If we could all tell truth as the way they are, objectively, things would be better off.

 

[Franklyn]

Folks, you've got to give Firaxis some credit. The company*is* putting out a patch, after all. And I suspect the rants on this site and others will result in a patch that will satisfy most civvers. Then again, some people won't ever be satisfied ...

As an aside, isn't the regular Civ 2 version something like Civ 2.42 (sorry, don't have my disk handy). Unless Civ2 was released at version 2.40, that means the game has had a bunch of patches (or attempted patches) slapped on it since release. So there's precedent, although most people here would consider Civ2 nothing short of perfect.

 

[Mike C]

Originally posted by Franklyn
Folks, you've got to give Firaxis some credit. The company*is* putting out a patch, after all. And I suspect the rants on this site and others will result in a patch that will satisfy most civvers. Then again, some people won't ever be satisfied ...

I fail to see why credit should be given. Software is supposed to work as advertised. Civ 3 isn't. Therefore a patch is mandatory and is to be expected. I repeat MANDATORY AND IS TO BE EXPECTED. The fact that they are taking their sweet time with it pisses me off. It wouldn't be half as bad if they had released a patch to take care of critical issues immediatly and then took their sweet time with the extra "enhancements".

If you want to know how a company gets credit. Take a look at Blizzard. Their products are 99% bug free. The bugs that do exist can be potential showstopping crash bugs. More often than not they aren't. The important thing here is that Blizzard products do not have flagrant bugs like Air superiority. It is obvious from their games at release state (which are all playble out of the box) that the product is thouroughly tested and goes gold when it hits an acceptable error rate. And it is continously tested even as the game goes gold and gets shipped. As a result, 2 weeks of furthur testing has gone by before the game even hits the shelf. The result is a bug patch within a week of release. Furthur more, the company continues to support the product many many months down the road with additional balancing patches, cheat bug patches, additional maps and additional interface features. Now THAT deserves credit.

 

[Mastermind]

Originally posted by WarandPeace

The problem is there, and any less of that recognition would be a lie to one's own conscience.
If we could all tell truth as the way they are, objectively, things would be better off.

YES! THere are definite and obvious bugs in this horrible game!
WHy are people trying to hide that, and at the same time give in to the carelessness Firaxis's DAN is showing to His customers?!

We need to stand up and take on the injustice served to us by the self-righteous corporation! Knowing for a fact that without us, they would never have been as big as they are.

How Dare they!!! GIVE US THE PATCH without further delays or We shall never touch a Firaxis or Sid made product ever again, so help me GOD!

You first Lie to us, then Deny us the information needed, and now Make Us feel guilty for asking something that Should have been Ours in the First place?!?

Crucible wretches!

 

[godot]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS


Well, for starters, because at any given time during the patch development and testing process, a bugfix may need to be removed because it has introduced new bugs that can't easily be resolved.

Therefore, we are not releasing any lists of fixes and feature enhancements until the patch has passed testing and has been signed off.

Dan

Dan, (If you see this message...)

Thanks for the response. I kinda thought that would be the reason (I'm a SW developer as well). I know you guys are in a no-win situation with this issue. For myself, I really don't care if the list of fixes changes, I'd just like to know what is in the hopper to soothe the childish can't-wait-for-Christmas side of my personality.

To everyone else,

Please don't call me a Firaxis kiss-ass, but it IS just a game! I realize it is disappointing to find bugs in new software and not have things work to the level of your expectations (game-play-wise and bug-fix-speed-wise), but since the entire situation is out of our hands (unless you want to return the game for a refund) we might as well be accepting of the situation. Man, do I sound like a spokesman for a 12-step program or what

Anyway, railing against things out of our control is a great American past-time and I do it too (even in this case), so don't believe I'm being holier-than-thou, just trying to be a calming voice amid the riotous din of enraged Civ junkies . (This board really needs a smiley for "tongue in cheek", but what should it be?)

 

[VoodooAce]

What an ass kisser.

My God, people. Why are you so thin skinned? Why are you worrying so much about other people's complaints/criticisms.

I get the feeling you want us all to shut up for fear we may piss off the mighty Firaxis gods and they'll never allow us the pleasure of giving them our money agaiin!

You are the ones that need to chill out.....start your own threads so you can all kiss Firaxis' feet, ass and other assorted, er, parts together in one mass orgy.

I like my game! I love it! I just wish I could play it through to the end. YEAH, OK!! I know someone out there is getting ready to telll me, "I play it all the way through and I just LOVE it!"

That's fine. Play through to the end if you want. Personally, I'm saving my games until the game functions properly.

And, since I did shell out my $50, the product is inferior, and I live in a Democratic society, I AM going to complain.

Now, Dan's most recent answer is better than ANYTHING else I've seen in response to the tons of questiosn so many of us have. Not much there, but it's better than anything thus far.

All we want is to be lead out of the Darkness!

 

[Franklyn]

Originally posted by Mike C


If you want to know how a company gets credit. Take a look at Blizzard. Their products are 99% bug free.

OK, so I did. For a company that puts out 99% bug-free products, there sure are a lot of patches for Diablo II. The number of bugs listed on Blizzard's online site are simply staggering.

And according to Gamespot, the most recent patch (version 1.09) came out in August -- 14 months after the game went gold.

You wanna give Blizzard credit? Be my guest ...

 

[Mike C]

Originally posted by Franklyn


OK, so I did. For a company that puts out 99% bug-free products, there sure are a lot of patches for Diablo II. The number of bugs listed on Blizzard's online site are simply staggering.

And according to Gamespot, the most recent patch (version 1.09) came out in August -- 14 months after the game went gold.

You wanna give Blizzard credit? Be my guest ...

Name one bug that comes anywhere close to the blunder made by Firaxis on their Air Superiority issue at any time after the game's release. Take a look at how many patches are delt out to simply give players balancing patches for various skills to make the game just that tad more fair. Sure there are a lot of crazy bugs they fix. But the fact is that the game is playable out of the box (unlike Civ 3). No features are broken out of the box.

Face it, the stuff blizzard fixes is the stuff like the Civ 3 bombard bug where you can bombard anywhere on the planet so long as you click enough times.

You cannot find an equivilant bug of the magnitude of Air Superiority on any of Blizzards products. Thats a fact.


Edit: In fact, to help you out on your quest, I'll even post the bug patch list.

http://www.blizzard.com/support/information/d2patch.shtml

When blizzard has to call "Fixed a hang bug that could occur if picking up gold while fleeing from a Gargantuan Beast (Act I). " a major bug, the code has got to be pretty tight.

 

[Sam_Catchem]

Wow!..People be getting totally emotional about this.

I have a hard time thinking it was JUST Infogrames pushing the product out the door as the fans beating at the door to get it ASAP. I know I was hyped. Hell, if you were them..wouldn't you try to step things up? Before this game was released...everyone who loved the past ones were excited..more so than any other game I have ever known. Strike while the iron is hot...that is what I would do.

I have not had any major problems with the game. I have had it crash a couple of times and so forth...but nothin I haven't seen before with other games. This game is fun and playable. I am enjoying now with the bugs..it will be great when those bugs are gone..but...I am still playing a ton.

Everybody is totally entitled to their opinion. Please lighten up a bit. THis game is awesome...and it will get better...just have fun until then. My sympathies to those whose machines' hardware/software is the problem and it cannot run or something. I am looking forward to the patch..but I have plenty to do until it comes. Like trying to smoke those evil French pinko bastiches off my feaking continent.

 

[godot]

Originally posted by VoodooAce
What an ass kisser.

I knew it would happen.

 

[Franklyn]

Acc. to Gamespot, Blizzard had to fix a D2 bug that would kill off characters and delete items, experience points, etc. That sounds big to me, and I'm sure Diablo fans were mighty p*ssed off about it.

I'm not completely unsympathetic to your point, MikeC. I've played and owned enough PC games to know that they'll ship with bugs, some bigger than others (and some more manageable than others depending on your gameplay style) and most of them fixed eventually.

To put this debate into context, consider the Civ2 airbase issue. I'm sure Sid & Co. didn't intend for airbases to become superfarms. This particular bug has never been patched, and most people refer to it now as a "cheat," which tells me that people have simply accepted it and moved on.