Deity: building the GL gambit and FoD query

[Drakan]

1) Yesterday I started a deity game choosing the Iroquois (alphabet) so I could have a reasonable shot at the GL following a beeline to Philosophy (which, unfortunately didn't discover first) so as to get the slingshot to Literature. All the AI civs (total of eight, huge pangea map) were random. Can you believe that even researching at a loss and doing a prebuild the AI built the GL 8 (eight!!!) minutes into the game. Amazing. I had built the GL at this level other times but choosing civs which didn't start with alphabet (missing out most of them and having to choose between militaristic mostly).

So I reloaded the game from 4000 B.C. twice, and the three times the AI beat me to it!! My starting point was excellent but I kept losing the buid to the GL every time. When building the GL at deity do you choose archipiélago maps and non scientific civs or none who start with alphabet or does anyone just select 8 random AI and go for it as I did?

2) Another query: again playing deity with the vikings over the weekend (this time WITH GL gambit elevator working fine) I tried out SirPleb's FoD with 13 4-cavalry armies out on the field and three 4-infantry armies defending a city on top of a hill with around 80 plus artillery and 15 infantry and 6 elite cavalry stacked in my size 1 city. The AI bombed the city every turn so I had to rebuild the walls and barracks now and again (I didn't have flight yet to stop them bombers plus when I got it it didn't matter cause I was in another continent and my planes couldn't reach my spearhead city). I had pillaged the tiles at the entrance of the FoD and right beside my city wall so the AI would have to stop right beside me so I could fire them with my 80 plus artillery. They could only access my city through this one pillaged tile.

The AI arrived with 230 riflemen, 40 cavalry and 100 or so guerilla. The point being that they didn't mass attack me with their units. Only the cavalry did and were decimated before having even fired a single shot at me. Why did the AI behave like this? Why did they send only 8 or 10 units at the most to attack me every turn in their own hitite soil. Was the AI clever enough to realize the pitfall I had set for it? What did I do wrong. I thought it Would send all units at once to obliterate me. Eventually I adopted an active role and killed them off, but I had wasted precious time already. Any advises please would be very welcome.....How do you implement the FoD tactic properly

Drakan

 

[bingen]

1)I have been doing Sid games recently and am able to get the GL fairly often even then. I use random opponents mostly. The deciding factor seems not to be whether the AI starts with alphabet or not rather than it bothering to research literacy. In many games the AI goes far into the next age before getting literacy.

Archipelago and continents make it easier beacuse of the reduced tech pace. Smaller map sizes also make it easier but only because when the number of opponents increases so does the likelyhood of one of them bothering to get literacy. You have a large map size compared to the number of AIs making overall tech pace slow, this ought to help.

I usually do minimum research on writing then maximum on literacy as I find the philosophy gambit to be fairly unreliable on deity and very unreliable on sid. I almost always get literacy first, and if I do not like my chances for the GL it at least gives me a valuable trading oppurtunity. And hopefully a weak neigbor willl get the GL.

2)I am not exactly sure about how it works but the AI will not attack if it considers it chances of winning too small. This usually works against the AI though, as it is generally incapable of dealing with pillaging armies.

 

[Drakan]

xnks Bingen.
1) I find that for writing I put my research slab at 20% on 50 turns because you cannot research it sooner. Then for Philosophy I research at the max possible even at a loss. But yesterday that gambit didn't work out thrice. Perhaps I should have gone straight for Literacy and left the Philosohy gamble for some other time. I'll try it out tonight from my 4000 B.C. save and see what happens.
2) Hmmm chances too slim to win.....should I only have one or two infantry armies at the most defending the city then to make it "easier" for the AI?

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Yes, that's the difference between DG and Deity: On DG, you can try the Philo gamble and research Lit after it, in Deity this is rarely working. Plus, it is extremely important to time the Literature research with your Palace prebuild, otherwise the AI usually will extort Lit and beat you...Managed to get the GLib several times on all kinds of maps in Deity, but then, I quite often don't bother building it...either you can outresearch/outtrade the AI anyway (say, Byz on 'Pelagos), or you want to capture it later with Cav

 

[Drakan]

yups, Doc Tsiolkovski (gosh, did I spell it right?) I wanted to build the Gl and then gift it away and then recapture it using the GL elevator gambit from Sir Pleb. It worked out fine over the weekend with the vikings on deity, cannot see why these Iroquois don't wanna build "my" GL.

 

[superslug]

1) I had built the GL at this level other times but choosing civs which didn't start with alphabet (missing out most of them and having to choose between militaristic mostly).

This tactic probably isn't used much if at all outside of the Hall of Fame huge maps. Since the AI's have to be devoid of Alphabet on Sid, it's probably not a bad idea on Deity. Archipelago maps definitely help since they can't meet/swap as much. You also need to make sure you minimize your trade with the AI, techwise. The only early tech you may want to consider getting is Masonry, for the Palace prebuild.

2) How do you implement the FoD tactic properly

SirPleb's screenshots and descriptions are really the best/only source for this tactic. If you're leaving an open path to the city with Army walls and it's not working, I would suggest pulling all the defenders out of the city. That might tempt the AI further...

 

[Drakan]

Amendment: I replayed for the fourth time my save with the iroquois and lost (again!) building the GL. BTW it wasn't 8 minutes into the game but 24 minutes what took the AI to build it.

Thanks Superslug. I did exchange for masonry hoping for a prebuild but even so I lost building the GL against the Incas for the fourth time, they're the runaway AI in my game techwise. Not to worry, because the wars that ensued provided me with 5 MGL well before the 10th century (having built the HE for the 3rd MGL onwards)!!! I was very pleased last night with this game.

I have studied very carefully SirPleb's threads, specially "SirPleb, Going for Sid", he's the player I admire most. I will follow your advice and take troops out of my hilltop town so as to make the odds better for the AI in its attack against me. xnks

 

[superslug]

I lost building the GL against the Incas for the fourth time, they're the runaway AI in my game techwise.

Considering their attributes and UU, I find this to be quite often the case in my games, which is why they're on my no-no list.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

And, the GL elevator is a viable strategy for HoF games, but not really acceptable for a challenging 'normal' game, and definetely considered an exploit in SGs.
So, your current game should be much more satisfying

Btw, handpicking all opponents (for the purpose of getting crippled AIs, like Zulu on small pelagos, or no one to start with Alphabet) is not really accepted as well - unless of course your trying to move up a level, or play Sid etc. Just not for 'regular' games.

 

[Drakan]

Hi Doc. yes I'm trying to move up from Emperor to Deity in the past month or so. I still haven't completed any of the Deity games that I've started yet. Although this one with the iroquois is turning out to be great fun.

I didn't know you couldn't handpick your opponents so as to be the only one with alphabet from the beginning. Mind you, I had barbarian huts all over the place and I'm sure the AI made good use of them, judging from their awesome tech-lead in the beginning.

I won't handpick them anymore, I guess you are right Doc. I was relying heavily on the GL elevator on Deity but I've found out i'm not so behind in tech after all (around 8 or 10 techs from the Incas). I'm fostering all wars possible between the AI's so as to do some catching up. xnks for the feedback, I appreciate it.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

It's perfectly fine if you handpick the weakest opponents when you try something that's really challenging for you - you move up one or more levels, a difficult variant,...

IMHO it's just a bad habbit to think you can beat a certain situation/level, when any random Civ selection would kill you...
If you choose no Civ with Alphabet, that means you have neither a SEA nor a COM Civ, and also only 4 SCI ones. Put that on a cold dry Pelago map, and restart until you have a nice start...But please don't claim "I easily beat Deity in no time"

And btw, late capturing of the GLib is fine as well, just not that elevator trick...

 

[Drakan]

It was an archipiélago large map with 8 AI civs (I played vikings) with plenty of bonus grasslands for everybody, it wasn't dry at all. As a matter of fact I did not win, the Germans won the Space Race. My D-Day landing on Hittite shores and the implementation of the FoD took far too long. Timing is critical at this level.

I'm still experimenting on Deity but making progress fast. I used to adopt a Balance of Power or Peaceful Builder approach at Emperor (with the occassional on-off war) but I find that in order to win at Deity I have to adopt a Warmongering approach. I've read some people (namely Kronic) are able to win at Sid without any military units (see HOF threads). But, well that's just not for me. I need some more fun than just waiting 30 turns for a temple to be completed.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Same here

 

[rcoutme]

What I have found is that the AI expansionist civs will tend much more often to get Philosophy and Literature because they pop the right goodie huts. If you are playing on a large map (with only 8 civs) then the chances of an expansionist civ popping enough tech-producing goodie huts to beat you to Literature (and Philo, btw, since that tech is not prized by the AI at all) is very high.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Extremely high, considering both are the cheapest techs available after the 2nd tiers...

 

[SirPleb]

I will follow your advice and take troops out of my hilltop town so as to make the odds better for the AI in its attack against me.

Superslug's suggestion does seem best, I don't have other suggestion to add to that. We are still in largely uncharted waters here The biggest difference I can see is that your city is on hills - perhaps that is adding enough defense bonus that the AI has decided it won't be worth attacking?

 

[Drakan]

Thanks for the advice everybody.

1)The Incans won last night after 13 hours and 9 minutes of gameplay with a cultural overall victory of more than 160.000 points. Well, at least the Aztecs with a little help from Red Cloud and other MGL's, didn't make it to see such an embarrassing end for my Iroquois
2) I'll try over the weekend "making it easier" for the AI in its charge against my viking hilltop city in Hiittite soil.

Next Deity game I'll deselect goodie huts and have no agricultural AI civ as an opponent. I'll set the game to max aggression level and foster all wars amongst themselves. Archipiélago, large, eight AI civs. See how it goes for Red Cloud this time....