Deity Freestyle #1 - Archipelago/Domination

[vadalaz]

Welcome to the first game of the unofficial Hall of Fame Deity Freestyle series! The games in this series will be played on Deity difficulty under the standard HOF rules, with a preset victory condition, map size, map type and game speed, but the leader choice will be up to the player. All discussion is highly encouraged here, be it questions, strategy and leader choice tips, write-ups of your games or suggestions for future games of this series.

Settings:

• Expansion: Brave New World
• Victory Condition: Domination (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
• Difficulty: Deity
• Map Size: Standard
• Map Type: Archipelago
• Speed: Standard
• Leader: Any
• Opponents: Any
• Version: SV8
• Date: 7th April to 1st May 2015

The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker. When the 1st May HOF update arrives, I'll compile a list of finishers and announce the winners.

Good luck!

 

[vadalaz]

After the recent discussion in the Gauntlet Suggestions thread, I decided to go ahead and post a Deity/Any civ challenge. I hope it proves to be an interesting one and encourage everyone to give it a try, even if you don't play Deity often.

There are currently only two HoF BNW entries that were played with these settings, and several more from GnK, the fastest of which are glory7's GnK T154 game as England, and Moriarte's BNW T169 as Spain. That's the time to beat, and I do hope this record will be broken by the time this competition ends.

One of the reasons why I chose Archi/Dom is because I think the leader choice isn't obvious here and could lead to some interesting strategies being used. There are multiple civs with bonuses to naval warfare; or are the science-oriented civs better because they reach certain techs quicker? Only one way to find out.

 

[chuckh89]

I'm playing,...

Maybe, if this goes well they will add it as a permanent addition to the Gauntlets.

I know this is "Just getting started", but if your planning on doing it next month also,...THEN maybe add a poll (3 choices), and others could vote, and let the most popular become next months selection....??


Looks like a great place to start!!


-

 

[vadalaz]

Good to have you on board, Chuck. I don't want to plan far ahead yet, I'd like to see how this one goes first. Not hoping for too much, I think a couple of entries besides my own would be very good already.

I have pretty much zero Deity Archipelago experience, so I'm going in blind. I think I'll try Theodora first, Dromons -> Galleasses seems somewhat similar to CBs into XBs.

 

[Morcar_olmig]

I will give it a try as well if i have time!

 

[Bleidraner]

I will play. Deity Domination is not my thing, I have little experience, but I will try. Gotta submit my science warlord first though.

 

[zenmaster]

I will try at least once after I tame the G-Major Time beast hopefully. My gut feelings are to try Indonesia for easy instant Deity expansion and/or Byzantium (rerolling if you fail to get a pantheon that can get you to a religion...) Venice might be better than both of those on Deity, come to think of it.

 

[Cromagnus]

I will try at least once after I tame the G-Major Time beast hopefully. My gut feelings are to try Indonesia for easy instant Deity expansion and/or Byzantium (rerolling if you fail to get a pantheon that can get you to a religion...) Venice might be better than both of those on Deity, come to think of it.

Polynesia + Chariot Archers

Edit: Not that the extra moves matter since most of your movement will be at sea. But they come earlier than composite bows, which is kind of a critical point.

Either way though, IMHO Polynesia > all. Whether you wait until Galleas or not... Galleas that can move over deep ocean >>>> normal Galleas.

EDIT: Oh, and this applies to the G-Major as well: Stop making me want to play these with all your interesting discussions!

 

[vadalaz]

I've been thinking about Venice too. Buffed Galleasses, plus all that cash from trade routes and GMoVs to rush-buy them as soon as you reach Compass... should be deadly if played right.

Question about Venice: are the GMoVs you get at Optics and Collective Rule truly free, or do they affect the GSEM counter? Edit: Just tested it quickly - the Optics one is free, but Collective Rule one isn't

 

[Manpanzee]

Polynesia + Chariot Archers

Edit: Not that the extra moves matter since most of your movement will be at sea. But they come earlier than composite bows, which is kind of a critical point.

Either way though, IMHO Polynesia > all. Whether you wait until Galleas or not... Galleas that can move over deep ocean >>>> normal Galleas.

EDIT: Oh, and this applies to the G-Major as well: Stop making me want to play these with all your interesting discussions!

Can Polynesia's Galleases actually enter deep ocean? I thought Poly's UA only applied to embarked units, which would mean that the deep ocean restriction is still there on early ships

 

[Cromagnus]

It applies to triremes, so I don't see why it wouldn't apply to Galleas. Or at least if memory serves, it does.

 

[vadalaz]

I wonder if Attila could work here? A quick attack with 2-3 rams unembarking next to a capital... You do need Optics though, so that slows things down a lot.

Anyway, I started a Byzantium game. Never really used Dromons before, and I have to say they're really good. I'm on T64, I've taken one capital so far and so has Attila. On my way to take down Siam now. Wish I included Venice as an opponent now - I forgot how good pillaging Cargo ships was.

Side note: this is the earliest I've seen ToA go, T23. Wonder what it is about Archipelago that made some AI prioritize it that much. Could be just a coincidence though.

 

[Cromagnus]

I'm very curious whether Dromons will ultimately win out over Polynesia. Archipelago usually has fairly direct routes through shallow water, so dromons will move faster some of the time, but other times chariot archers will move faster because they can move in a straight line.

I think Polynesia ultimately wins because you never have to backtrack, and Polynesian triremes/scouts can scout so much more efficiently. You'll get more ruins, more 30g CS finds, etc.

But Dromons with a Compass Beeline may be faster overall. The chariot archers will struggle to clear the map before Galleas, and having double-attack Galleas on T90 might even be more valuable than galleas that can move over deep water.

Still, given that most domination runs are movement-rate bound, and direct routes requires less moves, I think Polynesia may have the edge.

I've done an Attila Archipelago Deity game before, but it wasn't submittable. (I rage-reloaded after a misclick moved my horse archer into the water instead of attacking)

It's effective, but slower than pangaea, and horse archers+triremes start to get in trouble after t100 because of cultural boundary expansion. (You typically can't disembark the horse archers before DoWing, so they can't move in and attack in the same turn, or move in and retreat upon discovering a deathtrap)

Not having visibility into enemy territory before attacking can be fatal on Deity. So, that's Attila's weakness on Archipelago. I don't think he can compete for fastest finish. But he can still win.

Denmark is also really effective. But chariot archers still lose all their movement rate when they disembark onto rough terrain, sadly. So CBs are superior IMHO. Catapults are even better.

 

[vadalaz]

Won on T134

I didn't have any good expo spots near the starting island, so I stayed on one city. Went Tradition 4 > Exploration 1, don't know if that was a mistake or not, but I think the happiness helped a lot. Could've snuck Honor in there perhaps, but I don't think it'd really matter too much. Had like 5 Galleasses with Range anyway.

I killed Siam and Morocco with Dromons to my west, while getting my NC and second army up, then took Vienna with Dromons to the south of my island. To the east I had the Huns, Netherlands and Ethiopia, who all spawned on the same island. That didn't go very well for Haile and William. To the far east I had Portugal, somewhat isolated from everyone else. The map didn't have wrapping shallow water connections so I had to move my western units all the way back.

I reached the Huns with my Galleass armies around T100-110, and took Addis Ababa and Amsterdam from Attila. He had a million rams, so I decided to just take peace for the time being and kill Portugal meanwhile, then get Attila's Court in a couple of turns in the end, hopefully without losing Amsterdam and Addis Ababa. Things worked out pretty well, capturing Lisbon was trivial and I took Attila's Court in two or three turns and won the game. Could've been faster with more efficient unit movement, particularly the melee units for city capture. Probably could've been faster if I delayed NC and rushed the 2nd dromon army instead. Might've been faster if I went Honor and got Range a bit quicker. Not entirely certain that including Attila was the right play either, but he did decimate the Ethiopian, Dutch and I think partially Portuguese armies. Hmmm.

Spoiler :

 

[Cromagnus]

Won on T134

I didn't have any good expo spots near the starting island, so I stayed on one city. Went Tradition 4 > Exploration 1, don't know if that was a mistake or not, but I think the happiness helped a lot. Could've snuck Honor in there perhaps, but I don't think it'd really matter too much. Had like 5 Galleasses with Range anyway.

I killed Siam and Morocco with Dromons to my west, while getting my NC and second army up, then took Vienna with Dromons to the south of my island. To the east I had the Huns, Netherlands and Ethiopia, who all spawned on the same island. That didn't go very well for Haile and William. To the far east I had Portugal, somewhat isolated from everyone else. The map didn't have wrapping shallow water connections so I had to move my western units all the way back.

I reached the Huns with my Galleass armies around T100-110, and took Addis Ababa and Amsterdam from Attila. He had a million rams, so I decided to just take peace for the time being and kill Portugal meanwhile, then get Attila's Court in a couple of turns in the end, hopefully without losing Amsterdam and Addis Ababa. Things worked out pretty well, capturing Lisbon was trivial and I took Attila's Court in two or three turns and won the game. Could've been faster with more efficient unit movement, particularly the melee units for city capture. Probably could've been faster if I delayed NC and rushed the 2nd dromon army instead. Might've been faster if I went Honor and got Range a bit quicker. Not entirely certain that including Attila was the right play either, but he did decimate the Ethiopian, Dutch and I think partially Portuguese armies. Hmmm.

Spoiler :

Nicely done. It's a gamble yes, but Attila is helpful because he keeps the world at war, which distracts the AI, makes them suicide units on each other, slows growth, etc. etc., which is generally a good thing unless Attila starts running away with the game.

 

[vadalaz]

Yeah, he wasn't really a huge problem. Bribing him to suicide his army into the nearby City-States did the trick.

I'm considering playing AS Attila for my next attempt. Something I want to do is to stack Rams and Triremes together and just smash them into cities. Even with -50% penalty Rams should have +250% vs cities right..? And cities/units can't shoot them back, they hit the Trireme instead.

Tested it on Emperor/Duel, Rams still do very good damage when attacking from the sea... Great General and Discipline help offset the penalty a bit, so you're attacking at +280%. I don't know how viable this is for Deity (probably isn't), but this approach could've likely beaten Carthage in the Quick/Chieftain gauntlet from a while back. Wish I'd thought of it then.

 

[Mesix]

Won on T134

I didn't have any good expo spots near the starting island, so I stayed on one city. Went Tradition 4 > Exploration 1, don't know if that was a mistake or not, but I think the happiness helped a lot. Could've snuck Honor in there perhaps, but I don't think it'd really matter too much. Had like 5 Galleasses with Range anyway.

I killed Siam and Morocco with Dromons to my west, while getting my NC and second army up, then took Vienna with Dromons to the south of my island. To the east I had the Huns, Netherlands and Ethiopia, who all spawned on the same island. That didn't go very well for Haile and William. To the far east I had Portugal, somewhat isolated from everyone else. The map didn't have wrapping shallow water connections so I had to move my western units all the way back.

I reached the Huns with my Galleass armies around T100-110, and took Addis Ababa and Amsterdam from Attila. He had a million rams, so I decided to just take peace for the time being and kill Portugal meanwhile, then get Attila's Court in a couple of turns in the end, hopefully without losing Amsterdam and Addis Ababa. Things worked out pretty well, capturing Lisbon was trivial and I took Attila's Court in two or three turns and won the game. Could've been faster with more efficient unit movement, particularly the melee units for city capture. Probably could've been faster if I delayed NC and rushed the 2nd dromon army instead. Might've been faster if I went Honor and got Range a bit quicker. Not entirely certain that including Attila was the right play either, but he did decimate the Ethiopian, Dutch and I think partially Portuguese armies. Hmmm.

Spoiler :

You didn't need to take Amsterdam and Addis Ababa. To score a domination vicotry, you don't have to control all of the capitals, the AI just has to have lost their capital (you are the only player who still controls your capital).

 

[vadalaz]

That's true for Vanilla and GnK, but in BNW you have to control all the original capitals to win a Domination victory.

 

[Mesix]

Really? I wasn't aware this had changed. I guess I logged a lot more time on G&K than I have so far on BNW. Not as much time for gaming these days.

 

[Manpanzee]

I've been messing around with this a bit and finally got a map I want to play through. Trying Polynesia with a pure Galleass rush -- two city Tradition and fast National College. I should get to Compass on Turn 85 with enough gold for 3+ instant ships. My nearest neighbor built Great Lighthouse, so I'm on track to have 5-move oceangoing Galleasses by Turn 100. Should be a good result.

Deciding what to reroll for was difficult. I ended up playing out a map with 4 Fish, 2 Wheat, and five (five!) Incense in range of the capital. I have ZERO hills in my two cities, though. So I am a bit concerned about actually building Galleasses.

However, luxury resources are EXTREMELY good for this game type. Deity AI have giant mounds of gold, and you don't care about diplomacy, so you can get insane gold income by cycling your luxuries through peace deals. If you universally DOW everyone as soon as peace deals unlock, you can sell each luxury for as much as 24 gold per turn. With four salable luxuries, I've been making something like 80 gold per turn from luxes. So far, I've cash-bought: one Settler, two Libraries, one Lighthouse, one Cargo Ship, and one Work Boat. Pretty good.

Incidentally, I find it pretty amusing that Byzantium and Polynesia are the two "obvious" choices for this game type. Bottom tier Deity civs, they says...