Deity in Vanilla, Warlords and BtS

[RedKi-rr]

Why Deity level in Warlords is considered as the most difficult?

In the following thread there are some numbers for Deity in Vanilla, Warlords and later in BtS.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10629596#post10629596

We can find that numbers in Vanilla and in Warlords are almost the same. So, did AI become much better in Warlords?
In BtS, AI also became much better than in Warlords, but in BtS AI need 80% of food for the growth (instead of 60%) and AI need 50% of money for upgrades (instead of 5%) and so on. Does this 20% of the food make so big difference? Or may be Warlords Deity isn't the most difficult?...

 

[Abegweit]

The AI was improved in Warlords but not greatly. The BtS AI incorporated Blake's BetterAI project and is far better in consequence. However BtS also reduced the AI bonuses considerably. It's not just about the food but in other ways as well. As I recall, the happy cap was 3 in Vanilla and Warlords. The combination of these factors means that Warlords was the hardest.

Note that this applies to the higher levels only. At lower levels, BtS is hardest. This is because they didn't change the bonuses for them. So at Noble, for example, you face the BtS AI with the same bonuses in Warlords.

 

[Manco Capac]

There is a reason why the Warlord GOTMs never cycle up to deity, but stop at IMM given the difficulty is too high on Warlords deity.

The main major differences between BTS and Warlords are:

1) Warlords had killing catapults
2) Warlords AI never whipped units when armies were at their city gates
3) Warlords AI had cities growing at inimaginable speed. At the end of the BCE era, sometimes, you could already see pop 16-20 cities.

 

[Fippy]

Think in Vanilla AIs also ignored cultural borders, and settled right around you without shame

 

[Manco Capac]

Think in Vanilla AIs also ignored cultural borders, and settled right around you without shame

Good ol'time and legacy from CivIII AI.

 

[RedKi-rr]

The AI was improved in Warlords but not greatly. The BtS AI incorporated Blake's BetterAI project and is far better in consequence. However BtS also reduced the AI bonuses considerably. It's not just about the food but in other ways as well. As I recall, the happy cap was 3 in Vanilla and Warlords. The combination of these factors means that Warlords was the hardest.

Note that this applies to the higher levels only. At lower levels, BtS is hardest. This is because they didn't change the bonuses for them. So at Noble, for example, you face the BtS AI with the same bonuses in Warlords.

The happy cap is also lower by 1 point, I forgot about it. But anyway, it's easy to feel the difference between Warlords Deity and other Deities. I wonder if "not greatly improved AI" makes such feeling difference. Can be any other factors?..Like building less troops (comparing to BtS) implies building more building and hence make the science better.

There is a reason why the Warlord GOTMs never cycle up to deity, but stop at IMM given the difficulty is too high on Warlords deity.

The main major differences between BTS and Warlords are:

1) Warlords had killing catapults
2) Warlords AI never whipped units when armies were at their city gates
3) Warlords AI had cities growing at inimaginable speed. At the end of the BCE era, sometimes, you could already see pop 16-20 cities.

Doesn't it mean that points 1 and 2 make Warlords easier for a human? Moreover, BtS has Blake's better AI.
Again, I wonder how this growing speed can be achieved by 20% of the food difference. And why this speed cannot be find in Vanilla?
Is there any hidden numbers?...

At the moment I see several arguments for BtS Deity AI and several argument for Warlords Deity AI, but I cannot see a couple of crucial arguments.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

BtS is also easier to play than Vanilla/Warlords, because a human player can more effectively use espionage (which Vanilla/Warlords lack) than the AI can.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[ZPV]

In BtS, Deity AI doesn't get a second free worker. That really hurts their start speed, and makes it a little easier for the player to establish a foothold.

My memory of patched Warlords (which did include much of Blake's work, but not all of it) was that the AI favoured farms which took advantage of the AI bonuses, and it built more units than Vanilla AI (plus some other improvements).

If you give BtS AI its second worker back, that might be an interesting matchup.

 

[RedKi-rr]

BtS is also easier to play than Vanilla/Warlords, because a human player can more effectively use espionage (which Vanilla/Warlords lack) than the AI can.

Sun Tzu Wu

It's true, but even without espionage Deity BtS is noticable easier...

In BtS, Deity AI doesn't get a second free worker. That really hurts their start speed, and makes it a little easier for the player to establish a foothold.

My memory of patched Warlords (which did include much of Blake's work, but not all of it) was that the AI favoured farms which took advantage of the AI bonuses, and it built more units than Vanilla AI (plus some other improvements).

If you give BtS AI its second worker back, that might be an interesting matchup.

This looks reasonable. Some food+free worker+better improvements.

By the way, is Immortal in Wardlords is easier than Deity in BtS (for some general and average case and so on)? I didn't play that many games with the same settings, but for me it looks easier.

Added:
And there are also a huge difference in inflation and war wearness (20 vs 80). As well as a stupid system of vassals in Warlords, but I have no idea which contribution can be done by all these.