[GS] Deity on Standard sized map

Mahi

Prince
Joined
Apr 24, 2010
Messages
425
I feel like I'm getting screwed over by the map generator lately, when playing deity on standard maps. Due to the 3 settlers the AI is getting, the space is really cramped in some starts and often (for me) finding an AI city 3-4 fields away from your capital borders means a restart because it's going to be early war rush that I can't do much about.
That's one complaint but what I really wanted to point out is that the map generator just seems to hate me. I'm not ashamed of re-rolling when the start is bad, for a deity game, but the amount of re-rolls I have to do, before I'm satisfied seem to have drastically increased lately, so I'm wondering if something changed in a small update. Here are some weird situation that just seems more normal now:
Some general observations:

- I do an archipelago map - I get a start next to the ocean with poor fields and one single sea resource
- I choose a civ focused on war - I don't get iron (actually, getting iron is ridiculously rare in general)
- I do a civ focused in religion - Not a damn natural wonder in sight
- In general there is much more big desert areas nearby my capitol location than I remember being before
- I choose a civ focused on naval capabilities - Only 3 oil fields on the whole map.
- And so on, and so on.

Anyone experience similar things?
 
A bigger map for the same number of civs might help, the game distributes good start positions according to difficulty level I think, and Deity likely means you get the worst...

You could try the Balanced Start in options ?
 
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legendary start, abuntant resources?

(of course, using firetuner to give you resourses is an option, but that is serious cheaty. :D)
(I do that just to spank the computer. Same with All tech/civic starts for me) :D
 
In case of bad spawning, the best advice is to play a leader highly indepedent on starting location, namely Alexander and Poundmaker. Their abilities make them adapt to any situations, for example Alex can generate science basically everywhere, Poundmaker makes the most flat land productive and the low food land viable just after very first tech: trade routes + mekewaps. That is why I consider them among 5 best leaders in game, you don't have to reroll to do great.

Also look another way - if there are many AIs nearby:
1) less space for barbs to spawn every turn and in Civ6 barbs are harder to deal than rival civ.
2) Free builders, free settlers (stealing)!! Free pantheon (pillage plantation)!!
And it all because AI would always declare war on you if you are the first civ they encounter, and as a result it is always better to decalre on them instead, because this way you would be able to peace after 10 turns. And because Civ6 is designed as it is designed, for declaring this war you can get 20+ gold per turn from another civ.
 
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legendary start, abuntant resources?

(of course, using firetuner to give you resourses is an option, but that is serious cheaty. :D)
(I do that just to spank the computer. Same with All tech/civic starts for me) :D
There’s also a cheat map mod that allows you to add resources, without going into the tuner. I usually use the map to save a game I’m bored with. Change terrain, add resources, etc.
 
I think what really annoys me the most is the iron is so rare. You got an aggressive neighbour?? Well, you better hold on until you get your crossbows to do anything effective about that.
In general I feel like the map generator is making basic strategic ressources wayy to rare and in many cases it seems to working against the civ you chose. Much more than it used to be.
 
Well, one thing you can do with firetuner. Start your game. Before doing anything, save it.
Then in firetuner, reveal the map and give yourself all techs. Then you can see all the resources.
If it totally sucks, start a new game. If resonable, just load up the save and play.

I've had some maps where I've had a huge area with squat for iron. Or coal. or oil...
Other times I'm swimming in the stuff. RNG is RNG. I swear it cheats. (well, so can I) :D
 
I feel like I'm getting screwed over by the map generator lately, when playing deity on standard maps. Due to the 3 settlers the AI is getting, the space is really cramped in some starts and often (for me) finding an AI city 3-4 fields away from your capital borders means a restart because it's going to be early war rush that I can't do much about.
That's one complaint but what I really wanted to point out is that the map generator just seems to hate me. I'm not ashamed of re-rolling when the start is bad, for a deity game, but the amount of re-rolls I have to do, before I'm satisfied seem to have drastically increased lately, so I'm wondering if something changed in a small update. Here are some weird situation that just seems more normal now:
Some general observations:

- I do an archipelago map - I get a start next to the ocean with poor fields and one single sea resource
- I choose a civ focused on war - I don't get iron (actually, getting iron is ridiculously rare in general)
- I do a civ focused in religion - Not a damn natural wonder in sight
- In general there is much more big desert areas nearby my capitol location than I remember being before
- I choose a civ focused on naval capabilities - Only 3 oil fields on the whole map.
- And so on, and so on.

Anyone experience similar things?
Maybe it should be 1 oil per movement point. Then if you are not moving you can stockpile it back up for the next big push.
 
Might be a good idea to keep some naval units that run on coal around, that is usually more common than oil on any given map, only Submarine, Destroyer, and Missile Cruiser require oil as it turns out.

I was somewhat surprised that a carrier does not, apparently since GS it does not require any resource .. ?
 
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You can overcome the amount of restarts needed as you get better at playing on deity.
The "not enough space" issue is a doubled edged sword against the AI, because the closer they are to you, the more vulnerable they are to you rushing them.
Personally I go to war against the deity AI most of the time in early game, because it sets up such a strong snowball when you take over their developed lands (and less contest for nearby unsettled lands), that you can essentially coast off of that to victory.
It does take soem very particular openers and a very strong tactical sense to pull off, but once you master it you can beat the nearby AI on a semi consistent basis, and use their close proximity to strengthen your game instead of assuming that its a loss.
 
I feel like I'm getting screwed over by the map generator lately, when playing deity on standard maps. Due to the 3 settlers the AI is getting, the space is really cramped in some starts and often (for me) finding an AI city 3-4 fields away from your capital borders means a restart because it's going to be early war rush that I can't do much about.
That's one complaint but what I really wanted to point out is that the map generator just seems to hate me. I'm not ashamed of re-rolling when the start is bad, for a deity game, but the amount of re-rolls I have to do, before I'm satisfied seem to have drastically increased lately, so I'm wondering if something changed in a small update. Here are some weird situation that just seems more normal now:
Some general observations:

- I do an archipelago map - I get a start next to the ocean with poor fields and one single sea resource
- I choose a civ focused on war - I don't get iron (actually, getting iron is ridiculously rare in general)
- I do a civ focused in religion - Not a damn natural wonder in sight
- In general there is much more big desert areas nearby my capitol location than I remember being before
- I choose a civ focused on naval capabilities - Only 3 oil fields on the whole map.
- And so on, and so on.

Anyone experience similar things?

I've worked my way up to playing at immortal level, and never yet dared to play deity. Maybe come Christmastime...?

As for the map, I nowadays favor a "huge" one with continents and islands. The islands really make it so much more interesting later in the game.

You've triggered me by mentioning strategic resource scarcity. Oh my god, I could rant for an hour about this. It can really make a game a drag to play, and so finally, for my current game, I'm trying out a mod that increases all strategic resources by about a third. And the result? With the standard statistician's caveat that n=1, I can report that I've had one of the most miserable experiences yet getting iron, coal, and oil. ONE iron tile and ONE coal tile were within reach, and ZERO oil ANYWHERE. Playing Hammurabi, I look north to China, covering about the same amount of territory, with SEVEN oil tiles. It really pisses me off. Don't anyone tell me that you can trade for oil, because in my experience the AI won't part with a meaningful quantity of any resources until it's nearly obsolete. In fact, it's the Atomic Age now, and China has developed none of its oil tiles. That pisses me off more.

Yeah, iron is absurdly rare compared to real life. Currently I'm still stuck with one iron tile for 15 cities, but since it has become obsolete it doesn't matter much anymore. Also I never really found a good resolution for the coal shortage. I got luck with oil, though. I sent units out to sea and found, in the fog, gobs of oil in a few uninhabited hellholes, and now am the chief oil exporter to the world. Usually it doesn't work out that way. I'm even building oil plants instead of coal plants, which I've never done before.

Overall I'd say iron is the worst early-game problem, and aluminum the worst late-game one. I seem to get the shaft disproportionately more often with resources compared to the AI. It's fair to say that almost every decision I make to go to war is motivated by strategic resource scarcity. Okay, that's maybe true to life for the pre-modern eras, but it's not normal after that. In modern times nations almost always go to war for purely nationalistic reasons, nationalism being a mind virus with a life of its own. Religion, language and culture are all ingredients in the nationalist brew.

Whoops, getting off track here...

Anyway, I do sympathize with your plight. We may both be falling prey to problems of perception, or statistical fluctuations which in the long run average out, but it does feel often like the map generator is conspiring against me. I almost quit my current game, things seemed so bad, but I'm glad I stuck it out, because I've clawed my way to the top of the score board.

What I don't much like is the way the human player seems to be held to a higher standard than the AI ones. Dido can knock off one city-state after another and nothing is done about it, but I take one of Gilgamesh's cities when he declares a surprise war on me, and he goes crying to the world congress and gets Kongo and the Maori to come to his rescue. On the other hand, Oberinspektor Derrick was right when he said in another thread that the AI is an absolute idiot in all things tactical, and all I had to do was sit in my cities and pick off enemy units as they trickled in one or two at a time, trying to breach my walls with swordsmen, or attack my fortified men-at-arms from across a river.
 
On the other hand, Oberinspektor Derrick was right when he said in another thread that the AI is an absolute idiot in all things tactical, and all I had to do was sit in my cities and pick off enemy units as they trickled in one or two at a time, trying to breach my walls with swordsmen, or attack my fortified men-at-arms from across a river.
Yes, and you can often counterattack from such a position if you play some certain leaders or openers, and destroy them for it once they bleed out. The ai can produce fast, but if you consistently try to have ai attack into you where you are fortified, you outtrade them by pretty much pure mathematical advantage faster than they can replace. Fortifying on forested hills against their units is one of the most underrated tactics against the ai, and they are more than happy to kill themselves while you just fortify, heal and rotate wounded units out to heal more. AI can't cope essentially, it always chooses the Kamikaze option which is plain stupid of it (and a big portion to why the ai overall sucks, they can't even kill one another).
 
legendary start, abuntant resources?

(of course, using firetuner to give you resourses is an option, but that is serious cheaty. :D)
(I do that just to spank the computer. Same with All tech/civic starts for me) :D
I think non-strategic resources are sufficiently abundant. It's just the strategic ones that are too scarce.
 
Yes, and you can often counterattack from such a position if you play some certain leaders or openers, and destroy them for it once they bleed out. The ai can produce fast, but if you consistently try to have ai attack into you where you are fortified, you outtrade them by pretty much pure mathematical advantage faster than they can replace. Fortifying on forested hills against their units is one of the most underrated tactics against the ai, and they are more than happy to kill themselves while you just fortify, heal and rotate wounded units out to heal more. AI can't cope essentially, it always chooses the Kamikaze option which is plain stupid of it (and a big portion to why the ai overall sucks, they can't even kill one another).
Ah, forested hills, eh? For some reason I never thought of exploiting that combination. Rivers and hills, yes, but I tend to overlook the trees. Thanks for mentioning it!
 
Ah, forested hills, eh? For some reason I never thought of exploiting that combination. Rivers and hills, yes, but I tend to overlook the trees. Thanks for mentioning it!
You can use forests/jungle or hills separately, but if you combine them you double the terrain combat strength bonus. The you add inn fortification (+3 for one turn, +6 for two turns of remaining fortitifed), the heal on top ø, and the ai just can't trade you down faster than you trade them. And the way combat strength bonuses work is that when you first get to stack them a bit, you start taking more and more favourable trades to if you get enough, eventually even oneshotting stuff when you stack enough of them. It's -the- way to take out the ai tactically (even better with some archers too).

Also the reason why I recommend crusade religious opener on deity, +10 extra combat strength In their territory is insanely strong if you want to kill your neighbour ai at the end of the ancient era/early classical. Way too strong id say, but that's why we have fun exploiting things in this game.
 
[...]- I do[...]
I choose[...]
- I do[...]
- In general there is much more big desert areas nearby my capitol location than I remember being before
- I choose[...]
- And so on, and so on.

Anyone experience similar things?
Yep, since the start of the release actually. I even call the map generator of Civ6 "mad bad map generator". When I don't start near deserts, oceans, ice and an AI all in one single game, This is city-States everywhere around me or even, why not, loyalty pressure in GS that prevents me to even plan a second or third city.

This game is insane. I particularly hate the loyalty pressure, because even in lower difficulty levels like in Prince, you cannot capture cities, you have to raze them. This is stupid beyond understanding.

I so miss the Civ2 map generator where you may have plenty room for expansion, that was the second X of 4X now. I love expanding. Creating settlers, sending them, or even why not sprawl from your capital center by creating new cities directly there (I mean in your production queue you could directly build cities around, that's an idea of mines) I love seeing my empire expand, evolve organically.

EDIT : oh, and for the parts I quoted, I wanted to say that I felt exactly the same, when I try to be the Inca I start on flat terrain. You cannot be what you want in Civ6, you have to adapt. I never saw the word "adapt" as being as bad as this before.
 
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