Deity Startup Difficulties...

Peaster said:
Can someone explain why trade is important in a conquest game? If "trade" means "trade routes" and "conquest" means "early conquest", I am skeptical about this.

i for one wasnt really addressing conquest games. i was addressing high score games. high scores are generated by converting all land to grassland and maxing the size of 254 cities which is the player limit. im not necessarily recommending this style of play since many would find it obnoxious to say the least. the games are very long to play out and highly artificial from the standpoint of what the designers no doubt originally had in mind.

even so i think if i were to go for the record on "earliest year conquest on a large map" id still start the same way since the tremendous cash infusion of the caravans would enable me to rush-build military units much faster than i could build them with shield production.
 
@Peaster
(about trade and conquest games)
You need cash to build an army.
The sooner you are willing to start conquering, the smaller your civ and your cash-flow.
Therefore a few overseas camel deliveries are usually most welcome to build up your treasury (5 barracks = 400 gold) and speed up military research, if needed.
But I wouldn't bother with building a SSC, Col, Cope, Isaac, except on a large island map where ironclads can happen to be most performing (I remember a game, about 4 years ago, where smash sent sailing dozens of triremes full of vet crusaders while I went on researching Steam: I won by and large ;) , but it was a very big map).
 
I don't try trade routes too often. On my last try, I got 50 gold from it (overseas, with an AI, from one of my better size 3 cities). At the same time, I am rush-building a caravan for a wonder and it costs me about 100 gold. So, I start thinking .... this trade route cost me boat-time and effort... and I lost gold on the deal!! No more trade routes!! :cool:

Is 50 gold below the norm ? Do you need bigger cities or WLTxD's or some trade secret :lol: to make it work?

@LaFayette - I just looked over your excellent 300AD replay finish in GOTM45. :goodjob: Couldn't find any trade routes. So, are there some games where it works better than others?

BTW - ursketchy seems interested in conquest :king: [he wrote "despite how much fun i've had constantly crushing opponents on king..."] so maybe we need to clear up which tips apply to that goal.
 
About your 50g trade route, the factor of payoff is TRADE ARROWS and DEMAND. If your city had low trade, and the comp's city had low trade, you won't get a high payoff. Remember that the computer favours trade last in its selection of tiles to use, so the city may not have had much trade anyway. A good strategy to use is to arange the tiles in your own city to the max amount of trade just for the dilivery.
 
Prof - Thanks, but I know that :) (and not much more). I set all my tiles to specials or ocean squares until my city was making about 6-7 arrows. It was NOT a SSC, of course. I found an AI city that demanded hides (or whatever) and travelled about 15 squares across the seas to get there. No idea what it's trade was like.

So, what is a typical trade route worth ? Please imagine it's about 500BC, when your best city is size 3 or maybe 4 (with no improvements).
 
It's very difficult to tell, it all depends on the other city. Check the "How High Can Trade Routes Get" thread (about a third of the way down the Strat and Tips page) and check the links there. (I'd post a link to it, but I don't know how. It would be apiciated if someone would write how. :))
 
best trade routes ive seen to date are about 6000gold/beaker on arrival and about 35 per turn before factoring in the marketplace et al bonus. ill leave it to others to discuss all the factors you will need going for you to get near this size bonus. ive also seen trade routes that net 5 gold/beaker on arrival and zero per turn.

there is a learning curve to getting the most from trade routes. i think good advice for now is no matter how much you feel trade routes are disappointing to you for now at least make a few caravans per game. in time you will get the hang of what makes for good trade routes.
 
Peaster said:
I don't try trade routes too often. On my last try, I got 50 gold from it (overseas, with an AI, from one of my better size 3 cities). At the same time, I am rush-building a caravan for a wonder and it costs me about 100 gold. So, I start thinking .... this trade route cost me boat-time and effort... and I lost gold on the deal!! No more trade routes!! :cool:

Actually, 50 gp is about the breakeven point. You need to consider that (a) gold and beakers are essentially interchangeable (i.e., one trade arrow can be converted into an equal number of gold or beakers - let's just set aside complicating factors like the presence or absence of libraries or marketplaces, etc.), and (b) a caravan delivery produces an equal amount of gold and beakers. Therefore, your 50 gp delivery also produced 50 beakers and had a total value of ~100 gp. Considering that the delivery also creates a trade route with on-going revenue, I am usually happy to do such a delivery.

More is always better, but that is always true. Should you therefore hold on to an oil caravan for centuries until it is demanded, because then you will get "more" for it? Of course not. Trade, trade, trade!
 
I've achieved a payout as small as 4 coins (with an ongoing value of zero) and as large as 3.6K -- typical ongoing values in the 20+ per turn. ElephantU & Timthe Enchanter have done much, much better, but I'm a little sloppy around the edges.

For a size 8-12 SSC, payouts with the closest foreign isle (and size 4 cities) might look like 300-500 for demanded dye, with silk able to generate more except for the cap (about two thirds of the beakers required for the next advance.) My $3.6K payout was for Uranium circa FT70+ or so -- so the beakers required might still have been a factor.

Early conquest requires an army -- and the army requires either shields or cash to get it going...cash seems to be the faster way to get those troops on the road.
 
though this is posted elsewhere ill review what it takes to get big bonuses.

late in the game:

1) great distance
2) size 20 city with every square producing trade, both for source and destination cities.
3) democracy, both source and destination.
4) superhighways at source always but also destination unless the destination city is all ocean tiles.
5) airport both cities.
6) supply demand requirement met. uranium is by far the most lucrative.
7) freight rather than caravan.
8) overseas trade route.

in the early game:

1) first 200 turns get a bonus.
2) certain techs not yet discovered results in a bonus. dont recall which but it might be navigation and engineering.
3) source city has built or rush built all of the following: collosus, aquaduct, sewer system, and harbor AND is size 20 with all tiles producing trade. if demo isnt discovered yet then at least republic. ideal destination would have as many attributes of the first list as possible. best plausible destination is size 12 republic.

you can increase your bonuses enormously if you:
1) road up the destination city even though its the "other guy's" city.
2) chop down trees at the destination city.
3) find one without hills which they might mine and of course mined hills produce no trade.
4) try to find a peace oriented destination civ with a good chance of staying in democracy. given that you cant guarantee he will stay there try to find a destination city near your opponent's capital.
5) rehome your units to your supercity.
6) play on a large map.

you can decrease time to destination if:
1) your supercity is on a coastal square
2) if you road your empire. then railroad.
3) you research lighthouse to give your triremes the shortest possible route.
4) you make a point of prioritizing naval research.
5) magellan's of course.
6) destination city on a coastal square.
7) ... or if you cant get a good coastal square then road the coast up to their city.
8) later in the game airports to get a 2-turn delivery.

early trade routes from a size 20 supercity to a city that demands the goods frequently net 800 gold delivery bonus (and 800 beakers). those 800 gold will rush build two more caravans two settlers AND a ship. this is why i rehome them even though it leaves me with an empire paradoxically almost without any trade routes :p

some wonders will make this strategy more efficient:
1) hanging gardens so you dont have to rush build temples.
2) pyramids to speed up the production of settlers.
3) collosus to improve trade bonus
4) lighthouse to speed up triremes and reduce the numbers needed.

it goes without saying you will build others like leonardo's when you get the tech but they should be trivial. the first four are NOT trivial. it takes skill and luck to get all four on a deity game.

the fastest net-worth growth achievable during this stage is about 10 percent per turn or a doubling every 7 turns. its possible in a good game to convert the large worldmap to grassland by 1850 - which is if i remember correctly 230-235 turns.
 
rysingsun said:
though this is posted elsewhere ill review what it takes to get big bonuses.

late in the game:

1) great distance
2) size 20 city with every square producing trade, both for source and destination cities.
3) democracy, both source and destination.
4) superhighways at source always but also destination unless the destination city is all ocean tiles.
5) airport both cities.
6) supply demand requirement met. uranium is by far the most lucrative.
7) freight rather than caravan.
8) overseas trade route.

- Democracy or Republic will get you the extra trade arrow; Democracy eliminates corruption loss and protects cities and units from bribery.
- Superhighways benefits any tiles that get trade from roads or rail at either end, both adding to the Base Trade from the tiles as well as adding a multiplier to the bonus (50% for one city, 100% for both).
- Airport at both ends will multiply the bonus 50% if both cities are on the same island/continent, 100% if on different islands/continents.
- If both cities are on the same island/continent the KeyRoad/Rail multiplier can add 50/100%, if the route is correct from destination city to source city, not the reverse. A very powerful alternative is the Station city trick.
- Another multiplier you forgot is delivery to a foreign city rather than homeciv city. This is separate from "overseas", which really means "different island/continent from source city".

in the early game:
1) first 200 turns get a bonus.
2) certain techs not yet discovered results in a bonus. dont recall which but it might be navigation and engineering.
3) source city has built or rush built all of the following: collosus, aquaduct, sewer system, and harbor AND is size 20 with all tiles producing trade. if demo isnt discovered yet then at least republic. ideal destination would have as many attributes of the first list as possible. best plausible destination is size 12 republic.

- The first 200 turns are doubled only if Invention OR Navigation are not discovered yet. That combines (1) and (2) above.
- The improvements from (3) do not multiply the trade (except for Colossus), they just permit larger cities. The point there is to have the largest possible city and set the workers to as many high-trade tiles as possible just before delivery.
- Republic or Celebrating Monarchy will both get the extra trade arrow.

you can increase your bonuses enormously if you:
1) road up the destination city even though its the "other guy's" city.
2) chop down trees at the destination city.
3) find one without hills which they might mine and of course mined hills produce no trade.
4) try to find a peace oriented destination civ with a good chance of staying in democracy. given that you cant guarantee he will stay there try to find a destination city near your opponent's capital.
5) rehome your units to your supercity.
6) play on a large map.

The point here is to encourage the other civ to focus on Food and Trade, rather than Shields. Roading Forests and Hills does nothing but help you get your caravans through quicker, but turning the Forests to Plains (with irrigation and roads) will increase the size and trade of the city.

I'm not clear what rehoming units will do to trade bonuses.

you can decrease time to destination if:
1) your supercity is on a coastal square
2) if you road your empire. then railroad.
3) you research lighthouse to give your triremes the shortest possible route.
4) you make a point of prioritizing naval research.
5) magellan's of course.
6) destination city on a coastal square.
7) ... or if you cant get a good coastal square then road the coast up to their city.
8) later in the game airports to get a 2-turn delivery.

A transport ship chain should also be mentioned for same-turn delivery across an ocean.

Here is the "definitive" thread on trade bonuses:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64729
 
These last few posts are very helpful. It sounds like getting a big payoff takes some preparation. Since most early conquerors hope to finish by 500AD or so, I don't think they have time for it. If I'm wrong about that, I hope someone will correct me.
 
thanks elephantu for the clarifications and additions. well said.

what i meant about rehoming is it gives you an arrival bonus scaled up to the large trade size of the supercity that you rehomed to. the disadvantage is the supercity can only have three active trade routes so by rehoming everything the rest of the empire never acquires trade routes and therefore never acquires the "per-turn" bonuses they would otherwise have gotten. its a controversial ploy of course but i advise every trade-nut like me to try it both ways.

ive never even tried an early conquest style game but the point is well taken that there might not be enough time to set up a hugely profitable trade network in such a short time. im just not sure. when i get my hands on my civ II disk again ill search for a good trade game and will be able to provide a useful save of a recent empire of mine right at the time my trade network first got properly set up. playing it for even a few turns will be enlightening.

(edit 11/1) ... heh .. next week maybe. you see its not in the house. its all part of the "keep civ disk out of the house until i catch up on some things" problem. i almost swiped the disk out of my parents' house but i decided if i did id probably waste another week on civ and im too behind on things to risk that just now :blush:
 
Slowthinker's recent conquest game at Apolyton has convinced me I was all wrong about trade routes, so I am re-reading the good advice in this thread. I guess I'll start a new thread with my questions though...
 
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