Denying strategic resources to AI

[Out4Blood]

Has anyone tried keeping strategic resources from the AI?

My second game (on Monarch), I had some difficulty procuring oil. I finally had to give up my firstborn to get oil from England for 20 turns, whereupon I commenced to mobilize with modern arnor and mech inf. I then invaded and took ONE OF ONLY TWO cities on the map that had oil reserves nearby. I never tried to get the other one since I was winning anyway at that point. But I wonder, is it worth trying to deny the WORLD of an important strategic resource? I can imagine it would be difficult and you would have to constantly be trading maps to make sure.

Obstacles:
1. Resources appear willy nilly at random points in the game - "You have discovered a new source of oil!"

2. It's sometimes difficult to get the AI to give up those world maps.

Thought it might be worth a look see.....

 

[exorcist]

Thats the only way to win man. Before I attacked the babylonians, I pillaged their road on the horses and then went for them... That was my first move. The first city I captured of the zulus was their only source of iron and it made all the difference.. all they could produce were horsemen and spears... nothing compared to immortals/pikes/longbows/knights.

The whole concept of the game is monopolizing the resources. You might be the weakest civ but if you have all the iron on your continent... you'll stand strong with two pikemen defending countless horsemen and bowmen...

 

[Out4Blood]

It's NOT the only way to win, as I have won on Monarch and Emperor without doing this. And I am talking STRATEGIC denial, not TACTICAL. Of course you pillage their resources when you attack (tactical). But I am suggesting actually making it a strategy to corner the world market on a particular resource, going to war with a civ on another continent because he has the only other source of oil in the world, trade embargoes, etc.

 

[Sam_Catchem]

That is totally the way to beat down your opponent. Take the towns that prodice Iron, Oil, Horses, etc. I am playing a game (warlord/egyptian) and my neighbors the Babylonians were a little behind me in tech (Military tech that is) I asked to see what he wanted for his territory map and gave it to him just to see where his resources were. Then I amassed a ton of War Chariots and the Knights and took those cities. He was crippled. But did I go for the kill..no. I made peace after taking his best three cities (including the Capitol!). I got a ton of cash to boot. Also (not sure if this is part of the deal) but my towns went nutso with love for the king. Then I waited to amass more troops...then BLAMO! I hit him again..and I didn't take much guff for it either. I had so many resources that I could trade them to others for cash and tech and stuff. It is like free money.

It totally kicks hind quarters, manno.

If you could do this globally..it wouldn't be much a game. It would be cool thing to try and take all the oil fields or iron mines or something. I imagine it impossible, but it would sure be fun to try. A monopoly on even a luxury item could be VERRRRRY lucrative.

 

[Gray]

I agree with everyone that resources are the key! Duh, I mean when I have musketmen and cannons and they are attacking with horseman and spears (because I have the iron, saltpeter, etc... ) their chances are not good. They just make my units elite, while I trim down their armies.

Also, one of the fastest ways to change another civs opinion of you is to trade lux and strat resources with them. In my last game, the Zulu hated me-mainly cuz I kept whipping them and taking the cities on their island with resources). But then I went to war with the Iroquios. I set up a little trade with the Zulu, who were closer to the Iroquios than me, and before you know it Zulu knigts (thanks to my horses and iron) where slapping around some mounted warriors. Actually they beat each other up pretty bad and I just sat back and laughed.

One thing that I do to maximize my resources is to build lots (I mean lots) of workers and military units for protection, then I set up colonies everywhere connected by roads. Sometimes it is better to build a city (ie close to another civ). Even if the city will be inefficient due to corruption, it is better to deny the resources to the AI and buy/rush your improvements.

This is all pretty much commonsense to anyone who has played the game, however, while utilizing this strat I came across something interesting. If you have a worker clearing a jungle or forest tile (either with or without a resource) and you then move a settler on that tile. If you build a city while the worker is clearing the tile (even if he has 10 turns to complete-for example) the tile automatically becomes grassland or plains or whatever is under the forest/jungle.

Has anyone else noticed this?

 

[diamon]

Denial of strategic resources to the AI opponents is an EXCELLENT method, if it can be done at all.

I managed to totally corner the market on saltpeter until the mid-1900's, about 1960 they finally found an area I hadn't noticed... Only the Americans had their own source of saltpeter, so the others didn't have musketmen, infantry, etc.

It worked out nicely, especially since the Americans were friends of mine. I finally allowed the French access to saltpeter as well for 34 gold/turn and 60 (out of 64) gold lump, as well as an offer of two techs. They seem rather peaceful so far, so it's not a problem, and they border with the Russians, who are quite a thorn in my side.

OTOH, the AI managed to corner Uranium, slowing me at a critical point as well. I think in peacetime I'll post ships with workers and settlers and maybe a military unit or two to quickly get the jump on any strategics I lack that are unclaimed (like the one source of coal I found unattended) or to hop on any that I wish to deny to the AI (like saltpeter in this last game).

Denial of strategic resources is HUGELY useful. Block them from saltpeter like I did, and no guys with guns. Block them from coal so they don't get railroads and coal plants. I'm not truly sure I'm making a "strategy" of this denial, but I think so. Tactical forbidding of resources is almost a given, but I do try my hardest to corner all nearby sources of horses, then just don't trade them. It'll put a crimp in the expansionist tendencies of the AI. Blocking saltpeter in my game was mostly luck, there weren't too many sources of it, and I controlled them all by accident. However, I had no sources of coal, oil, or aluminum at first, but I quickly secured one through conquest or long-distance colonies. Blocking saltpeter allowed me to be *sure* that for a time they had no musketmen/infantry/marines, etc. They controlled one for a time, and I captured that back, but their short control of it helped their defense immeasurably.

As well, does anyone have a suggestion on how to get a strategic that is within an underdeveloped AI's control area without giving them the tech needed to see the resource or going to war to take it? I didn't want to swat the Indian folks, but hey, when you need aluminum....

What was mean was that one time there were three sources of coal, but more folks than that...

Two of the three pieces of coal were right next to the Russian capitol. Let me tell you about contested ground.....

 

[LKendter]

Don't discount keeping luxury resources from the computer. A large amount of these do wonders to help with cities being unhappy. First city I took had multiple ivory. All of a sudden my cities got happier. You would not believe what the computer will trade for a luxury. I have already gotten a tech, 200+ gold, and world map for 20 turns of a luxury! Plus you are trading with other civs, keeping them happy

 

[Malys Faisent]

Cornering the market is a viable strategy...any market, either strategic or luxury. Luxuries seem a little easier to corner than SRs though, since they group together so tightly.

The best way not to get nuked is to take away their uranium.

Edit> Gray

I've noticed that city thing you talk about as well...Regardless of where you found a city it will give you a minimum of 2 food 1 shield and 1 commerce...if you found it somewhere with a bonus that is higher you will get that instead...however, you cannot mine or irrigate the land a city is on....Its better to build next to iron than on iron, or next to wheat than on it...but building on top of things like tundra and desert is possible and sometimes preferrable because the city's square becomes much more productive than the original land...I've made pleanty of cities in tundra when surrounded by game, and they did just fine...or cities off a bit in a desert but close enough to a floodplain to get the needed food.

 

[Bchaeus Maximus]

Strategic Resources is simple: If I can see it, I want it. And If I have it, they don't. Everything is about resources, because the only way to have military superiority and on harder levels it seems to be the only way to win.

-Bchaeus Maximus

 

[Gray]

The whole Strategic Resource arguement is basically an extrapolation of history into the game. Why did Japan attack America in WWII? SR!!! America cut off their oil supply, no oil no navy, no navy no imperial japanese empire... They had to attack even though Yamamoto was against it (smart guy) because he knew what would happen if we moblized for war.

Same thing goes for WWI, Europe was the proxy chess board battleground for the Imperialistic nations that were dividing up Africa and the Pacific. Why did France, England, Germany, and the like want these lands in Africa and Asia---Strategic Resources! (iron, copper, oil, coal, etc...) and luxury goods (can we say gold and diamonds???).

How does this relate to Civ 3? If you have them (SR) and they don't. You win and they lose. So, use those early warriors and galleys. Explore Explore Explore. Find the resources, send in the troops and build colonies and or cities!!! Keep the AI in the stone age and pretty soon their archers and spearman will be attacking your riflemen, infantry, or just getting slaughtered by your artillery fire. And when they bring their caravels up against your battleships and ironclads, well try not to laugh too hard when you sail right through them!!!

 

[ironfang]

Does the AI know to defend resources that it hasnt discovered the technology to know about?

ironfang

 

[Napoleon Hitler]

Originally posted by Gray
This is all pretty much commonsense to anyone who has played the game, however, while utilizing this strat I came across something interesting. If you have a worker clearing a jungle or forest tile (either with or without a resource) and you then move a settler on that tile. If you build a city while the worker is clearing the tile (even if he has 10 turns to complete-for example) the tile automatically becomes grassland or plains or whatever is under the forest/jungle.

Has anyone else noticed this?

You don't even have to have a worker there. All you have to do is place the city. If it is on a forest or jungle square, then it immediately changes to grass or plains. If it is desert, then it will give you 2 food instead of 1 food in the city.

Really, the only squares you can't put good cities on in Civ3 are mountain squares. I don't even think they'll let you put a city on them. But deserts, jungles, and forests are all civilizable now.

 

[Gray]

I don't think so. In my last game the Zulu had a convient saltpeter tile right next to an accessable city on their sea coast. The city was poorly defended and fell easily to my 6 units. Then, they accepted my peace offering right away. Unfortunatly for me, I got greedy and tried to take another city-then they basically swarmed me with their crappy horseman, warriors, and impi...

I have not seen too many AI colonies either-has anyone else seen the AI build colonies. In my games, they tend to just try to move cities near the resources.

 

[The Last Conformist]

While I've mostly been on the receiving end of SR monopolization (the AI is bright enough to deny the Chinese access to horses even when offered extreme riches for it), I don have to agree it's effective (that Chinese Empire eventually succumbed to Persian mounted units ripping up it's road network, forcing it to relay on spearmen and archers).

Perhaps it's even too effective - in the real world, nobody has been able to monopolize iron since the Hettites, and there ought to be useable (if not rich) ores in any major mountain chain (a recent game saw a fierce age-long war between me and the Indians for a tiny mountain in the middle of a desert - it was the only source of iron on the continent not placed in the middle of the rival Japanese Empire, despite my territory being crisscrossed with mountain chains. Ironically, I had about eight sources of gold ...). I think that iron, and perhaps also some other resources should be more withspread.

 

[Sam_Catchem]

Lack of iron is the killah!

If you take a civs sole source they are so toast.

Unfortunately, the same applies to you. Ever tried trading for iron or any other strat resource? It costs you a ton (more and more as time wears on). You either have to go explore (which can take forever and a day) and pray to find some..or go try and kick somebody's behind. Which is sooooo tuff if they have the latest and greatest in military and chucking spears and shooting arrows at them. I agree..iron especially..they need to be little more widespread.

The AI totally know to defend there resources. They do tend to plop cities down right next to them (so do I). They also will build colonies and fortify. I once saw the French (pink bastards..no offense..hate the color) build a road 3 squares away from a city and build a colony for horses. Weird..but it was so funny to watch it happen. Cool thing was I just took the city and they were out there horses. Hee Hee. The thing is the AI is always looking for more resources too! That si why they want your territory map all the freaking time.

Resources are why I go for Iron Working, Gunpowder, etc. ASAP. I will trade to get iron working early early on.

 

[Sentinali]

The number of resources is determined by the number of Civs in the games, not the size of the land mass. So remember is you are playing a map that is underpopulated, but due to corruption you will have to use colonies. In this situation the computer will use colonies as well.

Try a huge world map with four civs....

 

[Out4Blood]

In my current Emperor-level game, I am not able to get access to iron. The civs who have iron have tremendous militaries and all have about 2x my cities. I am friends with EVERYONE and I trade all the time. However, until I can begin to make city improvements that require iron, I think I will just forego it. I don't have the econ to build up a huge army in 20 turns to forcibly take an iron resource.

On the other hand, I am near the front of the tech race and have great culture #3 or #4. I am hoping I can make up lost ground once we get to the modern age.

 

[hoyatables]

As a professed international affairs buff, I have to say this game does more to make the interplay of economics, culture, politics, and power fun than I thought possible. And Resources make the economic side possible. You all are very right to point out the possibilities - cornering the market on strategic resources, limited war to capture major luxuries, and so on. People don't just fight wars because they don't like their neighbors; they fight them to get stuff. France and Germany over Alsace-Lorraine and its rich iron and coal deposits, for example.

And I tell ya, I don't mind the corruption in colonies so much. Colonies, as a rule, are only useful in a marcantile sense - for securing a resource. Other than that, don't expect to build another mini-empire on that continent across the ocean, unless yours is pretty small AND you build the forbidden palace. It's a shame those types of large colonial empires can't have detached parts revolt and form a new civ - now THAT would be cool. Maybe Civ IV?

The way I see it, there are a few major points in the game where you NEED to get a strategic resource. The first is iron and horses - that's pretty much hit or miss, but an intrepid Civver will use Scouts and Workers to try to get a colony going until a Settler can relocate. I've gotten by just fine without horses, at least until it's time for cavalry. The next wave comes with Saltpeter. This is an interesting one, since I've been fortunate enough to have it in both my games. But it goes without saying that you may want to move towards greater exploratory techs (navigation and magnetism) around this time if you want to 'corner the market.' Being the first Civ to cross the ocean has its benefits.

The next wave comes in the early modern age, with coal, rubber, and oil. Coal is tough to predict, because hills don't always have it. I've gotten screwed in one game because no one seemed to have any. Looked all over the world to no avail. Traded maps left and right. Then I finally explored a little open patch on the coast in the middle of my neighbor's empire and BAM! - found my coal 200 years too late. Here's my suggestion when you get to this point in the game - the industrial age:
* Before you enter the industrial age, as you reach the point when you have little to build improvements-wise, start cranking out workers. You'll need them. And get a settler, explorer, musketman galleon force or two ready, too.
* Then learn Steam Power.
* Then research Medicine and Sanitation.
* While you're waiting for those to develop, go on the great global coal hunt. Find, fight, secure your sources. Build colonies if necessary.
* Set those workers loose building rail once you find coal. I prefer to individually build connecting lines, then set them loose with automation. They will literally march down your empire in a line, covering it with rail. It's kinda ugly, but I'm sure it is making cities superproductive.
* Once Sanitation is done, build hospitals. in your larger cities, these will be done right around the time Industrialization is researched. Your cities will start to explode in growth and make your Factory building in the core of the empire go much more quickly.

For oil:
* After Industrialization, you might want to get cracking on the Scientific Method. Theory of Evolution wonder (which will quickly build with all those rail and factories!) will back fill two of the techs you skipped. Anyway, after this, target replaceable parts and refining.
* While you are waiting for rubber and oil to be discovered, start to consider jungles and forests. Have a mobile settling force ready to jump at a moment's notice. you might want to consider Settling that icy northern tundra or desolate desert, too - because I'll bet 10-to-1 that it will pay off. I found myself sitting on FOUR oils in one city in the north!

I've found this to be the most challenging addition to Civ III. It really gives the game a new dynamic, and forces you to think centuries ahead when you debate razing that city in the desert that won't be of much use in 1000 BC.

Just my two cents.