[Pool] It seems strategic resources will no longer be needed to build specific military units. Would you approve this change?

Do you agree with the change?


  • Total voters
    102
You're essentially applying Modern-era energy resources logic to pre-Modern non-energy resources ; ie, conflating things that are only marginally related at best.

No, lack of pre-modern internal resources should not be crippling, even in warfare. A small combat effectiveness penalty is perfectly appropriate ; no pre-modern society has the volume of industrial production and warfare use to necessitate the large-scale exploitation and massive deposits of natural resources that special resources represent in game. Nor do pre-modern society have the ability to perform trade interdiction anywhere near the level needed to cut off supply of a key strategic good to the point of being crippling.

Modern-era, resources in large amount should be a key part of the economic-industrial game, and losing them should hurt a lot (and warring enemies should actually have the tools to do it) but we'll see exactly how that works - we don't know how modern resources work.
 
You're essentially applying Modern-era energy resources logic to pre-Modern non-energy resources

Yes they are quite different. Pre modern age, just getting the material built in the first place was the hard part. Once it's built, yes it has to be maintained, and may rust out eventually, but in the short term should retain most of its strength. As I mentioned, getting this right would make the game more complex than it needs to be. But I still stand by the need to have these penalties, okay the game calls them bonuses to the player who has the resources, significant enough so that it matters.

One thing I am curious about, is if you pillage a civ's iron resource do they instantaneously lose their bonus to combat? That might be a bit extreme. We'll have to see how it plays in game.
 
I enjoyed the hunt for strategics. And made sense too to get the upper hand from bronze weapons with iron ones.
 
And made sense too to get the upper hand from bronze weapons with iron ones.
Actually, iron weapons overwhelmed bronze ones because of quantity and cheapness, not quality and scarcity. It will be reasonable when we have bronze as a strategic resource that makes you to get the upper hand from stone weapons, but it doesn't work for the bronze-iron transition.
 
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Actually, iron weapons overwhelmed bronze ones because of quantity and cheapness, not quality and scarcity. It will be reasonable when we have bronze as a strategic resource that makes you to get the upper hand from stone weapons, but it doesn't work for the bronze-iron transition.
I think it was mostly the invention of steel created from iron that pushed technology forward not just ironworking.
 
That's the case for the first 2 eras. We don't know for sure how resources work at modern era. In the naval video they say that the player must have resources to maintain a powerful navy. What that means exactly, we don't know. But my guess is that without coal and oil your ships and planes won't work and the "battle" for resources will be key for military and economic victory.
 
I think it was mostly the invention of steel created from iron that pushed technology forward not just ironworking.
Yes, but it is not based on unique materials but technological progresses. Bronze needs various unique metals from monopolized origin, while steel needs only iron and cokes everywhere.
 
That's the case for the first 2 eras. We don't know for sure how resources work at modern era. In the naval video they say that the player must have resources to maintain a powerful navy. What that means exactly, we don't know. But my guess is that without coal and oil your ships and planes won't work and the "battle" for resources will be key for military and economic victory.

Good point. I'm certainly eager to see more information on this. While I said above that it may be too complex to have different systems for different ages/eras, this would be the ideal game to do it, since the age transitions are so big and rule changing. And of course, even Civ 6 had different mechanics in the late game regarding resources compared to the early game. Now that said, I don't want to see it so pillaging the oil resource instantly makes your units suffer. Large nations do have strategic reserves after all. But there should be some penalty, especially if the war goes on a long time.
 
How about increasing production speed or decreasing maintenance cost IF you had the resource?
That's the case for the first 2 eras. We don't know for sure how resources work at modern era. In the naval video they say that the player must have resources to maintain a powerful navy. What that means exactly, we don't know. But my guess is that without coal and oil your ships and planes won't work and the "battle" for resources will be key for military and economic victory.
Good point. I'm certainly eager to see more information on this. While I said above that it may be too complex to have different systems for different ages/eras, this would be the ideal game to do it, since the age transitions are so big and rule changing. And of course, even Civ 6 had different mechanics in the late game regarding resources compared to the early game. Now that said, I don't want to see it so pillaging the oil resource instantly makes your units suffer. Large nations do have strategic reserves after all. But there should be some penalty, especially if the war goes on a long time.
One way I could see it being interesting: not having the resource wouldn't make it so you couldn't build the unit or destroy units you have, but instead have negative effects like lower fighting strength, slower unit healing or some other type of lowering the unit effectiveness to represent things like not being able to use all your equipment or it breaking down more easily, etc.
 
I agree with most others here, the new system seems overall better, at least for early game ages. The fact that random luck-of-the-draw leaving you with a zero iron start locked you out of building swordsmen completely was neither realistic or good for balance. Another work-around would be having the ability to produce iron (or rather: Steel) given a certain technology and building, but I'm willing to see how this plays out.
As I understand, you'll have resource producing in Modern era, but it's likely those resources will also be just bonuses, not required one.

Focusing too much on resource production leads to games like Ara, which is totally different and made for quite different audience.
 
A note on the Iron - Steel - Bronze debate.

The primary characteristic of bronze was that it was always, everywhere, Expensive. Copper and Tin, the primary components (although arsenical ores were used for a less-effective form of arsenical bronze very early, and Roman 'Bronze" was actually usually made with Zinc, so was correctly Brass) are rarely found together, and so bronze required at least one or more long trade routes, with frequently very few or no alternatives - which means that the traders could jack up the prices with impunity, and did.

Bronze was the first metal strong enough to be an attractive alternative to stone: copper tools were earlier, but, for instance, in North America natives were exploiting major copper deposits for thousands of years, and trading copper and tools from it all the way across the continent from the Great Lakes to Florida, but they seem to have been as much 'prestige' items more than useful tools. They stopped exploiting the copper deposits long before Europeans arrived, because copper tools were not as handy as those made from stone or obsidian!

Bronze is directly responsible for some other technological developments: it was the first metal that swords could be made from (although, to be precise, they were what today would be called 'short swords' averaging .5 to .7 meters long) - an entirely new type of weapon compared to the earlier axes, stone-headed maces and clubs, or flint-tipped spears that seem to have predominated in Neolithic melee warfare. Bronze toothed saws, that allowed clean cuts to be made across the grain of wood, always appear at virtually the same time that solid wooden wheels appear - because a solid wooden wheel requires cuts across the grain to be strong enough to support any weight, so, Bronze Working and The Wheel are directly related as technologies.

Bronze is actually stronger in many ways than wrought iron, but some of this is due to a thousand years or more of bronze working in which the techniques were refined compared to primitive iron working. Also, there is now some question as to just how primitive the early iron-working was: metallurgical analysis of some early Hallstadt iron swords (proto-Celts) showed some of them to be mild steel or close to it, rather than strictly 'wrought iron'. Quality control, as always in pre-modern technology, was critical: you could never be entirely sure just how good your 'iron' sword was until you tried it out, but the fact that some were much better than others in practice is attested by the number of legends about 'magical' swords from all parts of the world.

The occasional 'super sword' of iron was not as important as the primary characteristic of iron, which was that the metal ores are available almost everywhere - at least in the small quantities used in pre-industrial times. That meant as soon as the technology to work it (higher-temperature kilns/furnaces, so Iron Working is related to Stoneware Pottery, which used the same technologies) was developed, Everybody could potentially have iron tools or weapons.

That means, while Bronze is an aristocratic metal, only affordable by the rich and few (see Homer's Illiad, where the Heroic Warriors are the ones in bronze armor and with bronze swords), Iron was the Proletarian Metal, affordable by a new 'middle class' of land-owning farmers. That, in turn, meant a whole new type of army: amateur farmers well-equipped with iron weapons like iron-tipped Hoplite spears or link mail iron armor and iron swords on the earliest Roman Legionaries, or masses of Celtic warriors with iron swords and spears. That meant that Iron changed not only armies, but Cultures: the Heroic Aristocrat had to find a new calling or be overwhelmed, so enter the aristocratic General replacing the aristocratic warrior - a least until feudalism revived him.

Just from this little metallurgical essay it is obvious that Bronze and Iron technologies have direct consequences for other technologies (The Wheel, Advanced Pottery) and cultural/social policies (Heroic Warriors, governments like Aristocracies, Oligarchies, Democracies, effective 'militias' like Hoplites and early Legions, etc).

Anything as comprehensive as the effects of Iron tools and weapons or Bronze availability did, and should have in the game, effects on a range of other things: other tech developments, social policy, politics, civil structure, culture . . .
 
I like the new system in part because it might actually make strategic resources tradeable.
 
The primary characteristic of bronze was that it was always, everywhere, Expensive. Copper and Tin, the primary components (although arsenical ores were used for a less-effective form of arsenical bronze very early, and Roman 'Bronze" was actually usually made with Zinc, so was correctly Brass) are rarely found together, and so bronze required at least one or more long trade routes, with frequently very few or no alternatives - which means that the traders could jack up the prices with impunity, and did.
Also, when your copper merchant's supply starts to diminish in quality, he will treat your servants in a manner no one ever thought to treat you, and he'll tell you that if you want the copper take it, but if you don't want it, go away. This will lead to the world's oldest attested customer service complaint. :mischief:
 
Also, when your copper merchant's supply starts to diminish in quality, he will treat your servants in a manner no one ever thought to treat you, and he'll tell you that if you want the copper take it, but if you don't want it, go away. This will lead to the world's oldest attested customer service complaint. :mischief:

Did I guess your reference right?
Spoiler Is this what Zaarin is talking about? :
 
I welcome this change. Somehow, in almost every game of VI I've played, I've inexplicably ended up in the one corner of the world with zero Iron, and I prefer not going to war in these games. Not for resources, at least.
Didn't particularly enjoy having to take the time to delete all of my Warriors and replace them with Spearmen in order to have an army which wasn't gimped by one particular class of units being un-upgradable beyond the first tier. And then I just had to hope it didn't happen all over again with Nitre and Aluminium.
 
It’s necessary. On one hand it’s jarring to have unique units that don’t require their respective resource that they should require. But the other hand, getting screwed out of your unique unit because the map generator didn’t give you a single Horse or Iron tile just plain feels bad.
 
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