This method works, although it is a little more complicated if you want it to work 100% of the time. The mechanic is explained in the War Academy, but CRp MapStat and (almost certainly) CivAssist II will give you the flip chances and how many troops are needed to reduce the flip risk to nothing.
Deposed cities
- Thread starter mikeinmukilteo
- Start date
This method works, although it is a little more complicated if you want it to work 100% of the time. The mechanic is explained in the War Academy, but CRp MapStat and (almost certainly) CivAssist II will give you the flip chances and how many troops are needed to reduce the flip risk to nothing.
darski
Regent in Training
the problem can be that you can be short by one or two and you lose all of the units if it flips. From CAII I have often seen where a pop5 city needs 16 units to stop a flip. They aren't worth that much. Better to fortify units outside and retake the city than to lose everything including a healing army. This assumes that you continue the war and keep going. if you make peace, you can't re-take the city.
My problem is that I don't use any assisting programs. I've nothing against them, I just don't use them. The problem at higher levels is that it takes too many units to 'secure' a city and those units can be better used conquering other cities. If you think there is a chance of a flip, park the units outside the city until it flips - and re-take it - or things calm down and it is deemed safe to occupy the city.
Keep in mind that you will need to keep some form of garrison in the city to put down resisters - a city in rebellion has a higher chance of flipping.
That's why many players will suggest razing the cities and replacing them instead of trying to capture and hold. It does add an extra layer of complexity to your invasions - you need to make sure you have settlers ready to claim the land to reap the rewards of your efforts.
Games which play "raze and replace" almost invariably have a lower score than games that play "capture and keep". Getting to the domination limit takes longer playing "raze and replace", because you have to have more settlers produced which lessens your military production and/or the amount of money you have (either cities not building wealth or because of increased unit cost). The key lies in exterminating your opponent as quickly as possible, and then quelling the resistance. Maybe that comes as too difficult to do in an always war game, I don't know. It may seem a nuisance when a city flips, but only in very rare cases for a non-variant epic game does the cost of a city flipping outweigh the benefits of keeping that city. That is, of course, in terms of the quality of gameplay. If you just don't like flips, and find it more fun to play "raze and replace" that's another story.
Usually one can't meaningfully refer to accepted HoF games in this sort of discussion, because the conditions of an accepted HoF game often differ from a regular game (Pyramids SGL, opponents which suit your desired victory condition, map type, a start with a cow or three, etc.) significantly enough that a comparison comes as questionable. However, here I think the comparison meaningful, especially since with fewer tribes around, the higher the cultural of any given AI. In other words, for HoF games, the cultural flipping problem ends up worse than a map fully loaded with tribes. If you check the 4 games here, you can figure out that the 4th place game played "raze and replace" while the games in places 1 to 3 played "capture and keep".
Usually one can't meaningfully refer to accepted HoF games in this sort of discussion, because the conditions of an accepted HoF game often differ from a regular game (Pyramids SGL, opponents which suit your desired victory condition, map type, a start with a cow or three, etc.) significantly enough that a comparison comes as questionable. However, here I think the comparison meaningful, especially since with fewer tribes around, the higher the cultural of any given AI. In other words, for HoF games, the cultural flipping problem ends up worse than a map fully loaded with tribes. If you check the 4 games here, you can figure out that the 4th place game played "raze and replace" while the games in places 1 to 3 played "capture and keep".
Rodrig0
Monarch
It isn't necesary to raze the city. Not even starve. What I do to prevent flips is have some culture and WLTK. This means rushing a temple, a market, and turn citizens to specialists or clowns as needed. Then arrange the tiles being worked so the city has no extra food. Then as soon as the resistance is over, start cash rushing citizens. That will produce a slave every 2 turs. When the city is down to 1 citizen, join some of my own workers, so the nationals will be majority.
Calis
on time
But you can't rush anything as long as the city is in resistance. the only way would be to disband units...
Sorry, but I won't be rushing temples or markets in corrupt cities. This is certainly a good idea if you can add them to your productive core. I might rush a temple to fill in gaps, particularly if I am a religious civ, but only if I don't intend to continue my conquest and I want to 'hold the line'. Otherwise it's time for ICS. I also wouldn't bother with WLTK day. Too much work and not enough payout. Since I want these cities at pop 6 with 2 citizens and 4 taxmen/scientists, I don't care if the 2 are happy just so long they are not unhappy. If rushing the temple otherwise matches my VC, then that's a different story.
NOT starving down the citizens may not be option. If you turn enough citizens to clowns or specialists to remove the chance of a riot, you may not have enough food, especially before rails. A city in resistance rarely pulls in enough food to grow during rebellion. Though in certain circumstances, managing growth is important, but overall I don't bother with this much.
I do rush slaves at times, but sometimes it is easier to raze for the free slaves and then replace. I guess I don't play for a killer score - which doesn't invalidate spoonwood's point, I just don't play that way and I don't doubt him at all. I'm not exactly sure why it would work this way? Pop count boost? If you replace right away you'll control the same 9 tiles (maybe more for cultural boundary merges)?
As an aside, I don't raze every captured city. I mostly play Emperor and rarely need to raze and replace. If I think there is a strong chance it will flip, has no important wonders and I don't want to hang up my military making sure it doesn't flip, then I raze and replace. By this time I probably have a few settlers waiting in the wings anyway. I might just raze the city because it is placed poorly. Free slaves and better spacing. If the city can be added to my productive core, then I almost always keep it unless it is spaced so poorly I can't resist my OCD.
Rodrig0
Monarch
Hello guys!
I was looking for a post about cities flipping, and this was the newest I found, so I though I'd do a little necromancy
It isn't THAT old, though.
So the question is... There have been times when a city flips with some very valuable units on it, like an army or a bunch of elites, so I like... ahem... reload
I send as many units as I have nearby to prevent it, but they won't be enough. So I reload again and remove all units from that city, and park them just outside to capture it next turn. But then the city without units doesn't flip! Why is that? 
I was looking for a post about cities flipping, and this was the newest I found, so I though I'd do a little necromancy
It isn't THAT old, though.So the question is... There have been times when a city flips with some very valuable units on it, like an army or a bunch of elites, so I like... ahem... reload
I send as many units as I have nearby to prevent it, but they won't be enough. So I reload again and remove all units from that city, and park them just outside to capture it next turn. But then the city without units doesn't flip! Why is that? 
Puppeteer
Emperor
City flipping is a chance event. There is reportedly a number of garrison that will prevent flip, but if it is under that number there is a percent chance each turn.
If you reload in a game without "preserve random seed" then the reload event may be different. But even in a "preserve random seed" game if you reload and then make different moves you may still get a different result. (I'm not sure if moving differently is sufficient or if you have to trigger another chance event like a battle or espionage mission to alter the random number if not the result.)
If you reload in a game without "preserve random seed" then the reload event may be different. But even in a "preserve random seed" game if you reload and then make different moves you may still get a different result. (I'm not sure if moving differently is sufficient or if you have to trigger another chance event like a battle or espionage mission to alter the random number if not the result.)
A lot of factors go into the flip issue. Mapstat will tell you how many units are needed to quell the place. Often it is more than you can muster or are willing to muster.
One way is to do what you did, well not the reloading, move units out and if it flip retake. A better way is to leave one scrub unit in an attempt to paficy the place and break the resistance. Each time you retake it the towns loses a pop and gets easier to deal with.
Taking towns next to it to prevent borders from overlapping the towns tiles helps. Often I just raze it.
One way is to do what you did, well not the reloading, move units out and if it flip retake. A better way is to leave one scrub unit in an attempt to paficy the place and break the resistance. Each time you retake it the towns loses a pop and gets easier to deal with.
Taking towns next to it to prevent borders from overlapping the towns tiles helps. Often I just raze it.
Rodrig0
Monarch
Hmmm... 
I should consider razing more, too. The problem with me is that I like to capture cities and then rush workers to produce slaves, and razing olny produces at most half of the citizens as slaves.
I do preserve random seed, and don't think just moves alone change the random seed. Like, I save at the end of the turn, and the next turn the city flips. I reload, then move some units to the city, and it flips all the same. Reload again and remove all units, and it doesn't. In both cases I moved units, so I don't quite understand how it works. It *could* have been due tu propaganda, and when I removed units the AI might have thought it wasn't necessary to spend on a propaganda mission, since it could capture the city easily without defenders... Next time this happen I'll see if they already have espionage. But doesn't seem likely
I should consider razing more, too. The problem with me is that I like to capture cities and then rush workers to produce slaves, and razing olny produces at most half of the citizens as slaves.I do preserve random seed, and don't think just moves alone change the random seed. Like, I save at the end of the turn, and the next turn the city flips. I reload, then move some units to the city, and it flips all the same. Reload again and remove all units, and it doesn't. In both cases I moved units, so I don't quite understand how it works. It *could* have been due tu propaganda, and when I removed units the AI might have thought it wasn't necessary to spend on a propaganda mission, since it could capture the city easily without defenders...
Next time this happen I'll see if they already have espionage. But doesn't seem likelyscratchthepitch
King
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2010
- Messages
- 798
(deleted)
Edit: when I posted this, I didn't notice the 2nd page or realize this was an old thread and I was posting a response to an old and already answered query. Ignore.
Edit: when I posted this, I didn't notice the 2nd page or realize this was an old thread and I was posting a response to an old and already answered query. Ignore.
PaperBeetle
Emperor
So the question is... There have been times when a city flips with some very valuable units on it, like an army or a bunch of elites, so I like... ahem... reload
There's quite a lot that happens between you moving your units and the city rolling for a flip. Specifically, all the AI move their units, and some of those moves might be combats, involving RNG rolls. If you change the arrangement of your units, the AI will see that (remember they don't have line-of-sight fog) and might change its own decision about how to move accordingly. Hence, when your city comes up for its flip roll, the RNG is in a different place.
del62
Deity
If I can I like to move a lot of units in on the first turn I take the city, and hope all resistance is quelled, then maybe leave a single unit.
I also use CivAssist and Mapstat to detrmine who many units I need to ensure no flip.
I also use CivAssist and Mapstat to detrmine who many units I need to ensure no flip.
Rodrig0
Monarch
Really!!!
I guess you're right... I'd never even considered the AI moves. But yes, they do combat too, so how else would the AI vs AI battles be decided? Now I'm feeling dumb
So the AI also has its own RNG... I wonder if it hates AIs as much as it does humans? 
scratchthepitch
King
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2010
- Messages
- 798
I wonder if it hates AIs as much as it does humans?
Nah, AI spears only defeat player tanks.
