Design A Themed ExPack

[PhoenicianGold]

So I've noted in several threads that the design philosophy of Rise & Fall seems to be unique in that Firaxis really tried to create a running theme which unified (most of) the civs in the pack. Several of the civs have blatant "resistence" mechanics like the Mapuche and Scotland. Several more are seen "resisting" imperialism, like the Dutch against the Nazis and the Koreans/Georgians against the Mongols. Aligning with this is a not-so-subtle theme of representing cultures which, despite being assimilated by expansionist empires and in several instances suffering substantially at their hands, have still managed to maintain a strong cultural identity (the Cree, Scotland, to some extent the Mapuche and even to a further extent the Koreans). Overall, 7 of the 8 civs follow this theme of cultural endurance, and I suspect that Mongolia was included not only to sell the thing, but to provide a better backdrop for Georgia and Korea to fit into this mold.

This is an unprecedented move for Firaxis, given that past packs seem to have mostly assembled their civs at random, probably from whichever civs were most developed at the time. I think the mechanics in Rise & Fall vary from loosely informing the theme to being completely irrelevant, but if you just look at the civs and how they have been framed and marketed, they have something resembling a clear, cohesive, holistic design.

So, now I put a fun challenge for you to experiment with: create a civ list for an expack with a clear theme. It doesn't have to be marketable or popular or even realistic. It doesn't have to follow gender or geographical or era rules. The challenge is simply to brainstorm and assemble a list of 7-8 civs that, when taken together, suggest some common idea or purpose. I'll start off with something that is extremely unlikely but illustrates the exercise:

Phyle Civs (widespread identity cultures with small, scattered, or nonexistent centralized government)

* The Holy See
* Cherokee
* Siberia
* Romani/Domi
* Tupi
* Inuit
* The Magic Kingdom
* Apple Park

I would also say, since I stuck to modern examples, the Jews, Maya, and Starbucks could feasibly be stretched to fit this theme, but I'm sticking to my guns.

What I'm hoping this thread might achieve if it takes off is maybe discovering new angles from which to approach the franchise like the way R&F did. I think finding different perspectives the series can take on the concept of "civilization" will generally increase the longevity and robustness of VI.

 

[Krajzen]

Eh, I'm not sure. The problem is, vast majority of civs can got "resistance" theme if you stretch it this much. Colonialism affected the entire world, and patriotism and resistance is universal.

Mongolia is invader by all means.
Chandragupta is pure invading force.

Korea was utterly subjugated by Mongols so it is not good example, its bonuses are also focused on science. It is also not exactly the example of strong defensive culture - it was conquered by Mongols, it was easily taken by 20th century Japan, it managed to repulse Japan in 16th century only because of Chinese (!) help and navy as it utterly failed on land...
Cree - the problem with "look, they managed to retain their cultural identity after all!" is that it applies to almost every civ that appears in the series lol. The only civs that "well this one actually did went extinct as it was assimilated" are extremely ancient ones who still held for a long time. And Cree are IMO in game because they are from central Canada so they nicely fill the map. They also are far from particularly effective anti-colonial warriors (especially when compared to Lakota or Comanche). They do not fit the "resistance" theme anymore than any other native tribe of North America does, imo.
Scotland has the meme of surviving against English onslaught, yeah. But in the end it itself became willing part of the colonial empire invading and exploiting other peoples. Scotland in the grand historical narrative is as much of "invader" as is "resistance". You could also say "Enlighs is resistance themed because it defended its island many times" etc...
Netherlands is the freakin colonial empire that first was fighting against Spanish and then opressing others in the same way.
Zulu are as much resistance against colonialism as they were opressors themselves, causing Mfecane (mass devastation, deaths, subjugation, even accusations of genocide) among other natives of South Africa.

Mapuche and Georgia are actually particularly stubborn and efficient examples of miltiary and cultural resistance so they are fine.


The problem with "resistance and defending homeland" is that it is the most general bonus and theme possible. You can give it to the vast majority of civs. What European country doesn't have national heroes, what native tribe of Americas was not fighting colonizers, what culture that got prominent enough to be in civ didn't survive cultural assimilation attempts (except extremely ancient ones)?

I could accept the "resistance" theme if civs provided by an xpac were like Mapuche, Georgia, Lakota, Ethiopia, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Byzantium and Maori - those are the most extreme examples of Defense Theme I could think of - but as it is, R&F doesn't seem to be particularly occupied by this theme to me. Its theme is, well, dynamic fate of civs who rise and fall but that's a theme of mechanics, not civs included; they were chosen based on fanservice, geographical balance, fun, significance, as they should be.

 

[Morningcalm]

Agreed that the theme of Rise and Fall seems to be about resistance, though you'd think some new scenarios would have helped--Rise and Fall is very behind on scenario content compared to the Civ V expansions. By behind I mean it has no scenarios at all. I was fully expecting some Dutch resistance to Spain/Germany scenario, a Cree and Canada scenario, Korea and Mongols scenario, etc.

Korea was utterly subjugated by Mongols so it is not good example, its bonuses are also focused on science. It is also not exactly the example of strong defensive culture - it was conquered by Mongols, it was easily taken by 20th century Japan, it managed to repulse Japan in 16th century only because of Chinese (!) help and navy as it utterly failed on land..

Misleading and incorrect on many counts. Koreans overthrew their Chinese overlords (Gorguryeo defeated the Sui), and defeated the Japanese in the 16th century without Ming China's help at sea (for a long time, as you can see the Chinese aren't even mentioned until the last few battles). Admiral Yi Sunshin utterly destroyed the Japanese at sea, and only political intrigue against him which resulted in him being dismissed from command and nearly executed allowed the Japanese to beat the Koreans at sea at the Battle of Chilcheollyang (the ONLY naval battle the Japanese won in the Imjin Wars).

Korea has had a long history of being invaded, but it held out defensively for quite some time, in part due to weaponized gunpowder. It's no incident that the hwacha and turtle ship are both stereotyped as defensive units--the hwacha allowed Korean guerilla rebels trapped in a fortress to defeat a vast horde of 30,000 samurai who outnumbered the 3,000 Korean defenders, and the turtle ship certainly aided Yi Sunshin in his naval victories, though the majority of his navy was made of the stocky panokson ships.

Also, many people fell before the Mongols. Korea and China did. The Khwarazim did. Russia did. Poland did. Hungary did. The list goes on. The few failures of the Mongols to invade were typically by sea or through jungle (in the case of Japan, Mother Nature's wrath helped Japan destroy the Mongol fleet).

Anyway, enough history.

Here's a suggested expansion theme:

Wealth and Wonders / Gold and Glory / Golden Horizons

1. Mali (led by Mansa Musa, wealthiest man in history)
2. Portugal (as explorers)
3. Carthage (traders and conquerors)
4. Ethiopia (Kingdom of Aksum)
5. Inca (known for their gold and their numerous wonders of road construction among other things)
6. Siam (Sukhothai Kingdom)
7. Judah (religious wonder)
8. Morocco (famous African traders)
9. Mayans (known for their wonders, including their scientific accomplishments)
10. Byzantium (Hagia Sophia, the glittering assemblage of the Byzantine Empire, heir to Rome)
11. Ottoman Turks (heirs to the Byzantine Empire, and known for their wealth and wonders too)

Of course, there are many that could be added to the list, including numerous African kingdoms and empires led by women (Yaa Asantewaa) who would be great additions. But I think Firaxis has kinda missed the boat to include them in their first expansion and we are unlikely to see anything but "big hits" in the second expansion, with a few dark horses.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Here's a suggested expansion theme:

Wealth and Wonders / Gold and Glory / Golden Horizons

1. Mali (led by Mansa Musa, wealthiest man in history)
2. Portugal (as explorers)
3. Carthage (traders and conquerors)
4. Ethiopia (Kingdom of Aksum)
5. Inca (known for their gold and their numerous wonders of road construction among other things)
6. Siam (Sukhothai Kingdom)
7. Judah (religious wonder)
8. Morocco (famous African traders)
9. Mayans (known for their wonders, including their scientific accomplishments)
10. Byzantium (Hagia Sophia, the glittering assemblage of the Byzantine Empire, heir to Rome)
11. Ottoman Turks (heirs to the Byzantine Empire, and known for their wealth and wonders too)

Of course, there are many that could be added to the list, including numerous African kingdoms and empires led by women (Yaa Asantewaa) who would be great additions. But I think Firaxis has kinda missed the boat to include them in their first expansion and we are unlikely to see anything but "big hits" in the second expansion, with a few dark horses.

I'm still hoping Firaxis didn't miss the boat and that they're spreading out their past IP over more DLC/expacks than they did in the past (which would mean we'd get a higher total number of civs, and a lot more new and returning civs in the process).

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if they did a "greatest hits" pack under this or a similar name, and you have pointed out an economic theme that could unite most of them (I think Judah and Ethiopia are stretching that theme, but that would just bring the overall count down closer to a traditional 8 civ pack).

I am curious, though. Say your "Golden Horizons" pack happens and it does have a few dark horses. The only dark horse I see in your list is Judah. Do you have any others in mind that may squeak by?

 

[Lord Lakely]

I would love to see an "Age of Discovery" themed Xpac, which contains Civs which pioneered new concepts and ideas or have something to do with (or against) colonialism in general.

1) Akkad (the first true empire in the sense of it)
2) Hatti (the first peace treaty)
3) Iroquois (the first native american tribe to form a Confederacy, which inspired the Founding Fathers' Congress)
4) Maya (had a complex understanding of mathematics and astrology)
5) Portugal (the first empire to circumnavigate the globe)
6) Ottomans (the first of the three "Gunpowder Empires", along with Savafid Persia and Mughal India)
7) Ethiopia (successfully fought off Italy, as well as one of the oldest sovereign states in the world)
8) Maori (descendants from ancient way-faring polynesians, also a region relatively unrepresented in Civ 6 so far)
9) Italy (the birthplace of the Renaissance)
Alt leader: Louis XIV for France (the greatest ruler in French history, patron of the arts, under his reign Louisiana was settled. Definitel one of France's Golden Ages, I'd say.)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Wealth and Wonders / Gold and Glory / Golden Horizons

1. Mali (led by Mansa Musa, wealthiest man in history)
2. Portugal (as explorers)
3. Carthage (traders and conquerors)
4. Ethiopia (Kingdom of Aksum)
5. Inca (known for their gold and their numerous wonders of road construction among other things)
6. Siam (Sukhothai Kingdom)
7. Judah (religious wonder)
8. Morocco (famous African traders)
9. Mayans (known for their wonders, including their scientific accomplishments)
10. Byzantium (Hagia Sophia, the glittering assemblage of the Byzantine Empire, heir to Rome)
11. Ottoman Turks (heirs to the Byzantine Empire, and known for their wealth and wonders too)

Of course, there are many that could be added to the list, including numerous African kingdoms and empires led by women (Yaa Asantewaa) who would be great additions. But I think Firaxis has kinda missed the boat to include them in their first expansion and we are unlikely to see anything but "big hits" in the second expansion, with a few dark horses.

We are overlapping a bit, especially in the Civ List, but here's my Expansion Idea:

Traders and Tycoons/Profit and Gloss/To Get Rich Is Glorious

An expansion built around Gold and completely Buffing Up the Trade System, including:
1. Making the Sea relevant again, with longer and more lucrative Trade Routes over water, earlier (coastal) sea faring, and extending waterborne Trade route advantages to Rivers - and Canals.
2. Making it possible to trade with 'barbarians', Rent mercenaries from Barbarians, City States OR other Civs (and make a profit renting out your own Units)
3. Use Envoy-like Factors or Agents to set up Commercial Enterprises in City States or other Civs, later expanding them into International Corporations -
4. OR International Banks, which can loan Gold to Civs or City States, but not paying them back can cost you.
5. Commercial Dark and Golden Ages - the Boom and Bust cycle: with certain Policies (Free Market, Capitalism, Laissez-faire, etc) you can multiply your Gold intake, until the market 'corrects' with Amenity, Loyalty, and Gold penalties.
6. 'National Wonders' and Wonders related to Trade and Commerce: East India Company, The National Bank, the Grand, Erie, Suez, or Panama Canals, River Rouge
7. Railroads, Containerized Shipping, National Highway Systems, and other late-game technologies that multiply Trade and Gold
8. A revamping of Resources so that it is possible, from early in the game, to have a Monopoly on a Resource, with major Gold/Trade benefits, but later in the game many 'Natural' Resources will be replaced or supplemented by Manufactured Resources worth even more to your own Civ and in International Trade (think Automobiles, Consumer Electronics, etc)
9. A new Victory Type: Commercial, in which your Civ dominates World Trade, Banking and Commerce: "We're not only wearing your blue jeans, we're paying you top price for them!"

Civilizations related to Trade are legion, and many already in the game could get Alternate Leaders that reflect their Commercial Influences, but new Civs might be:

1. Mali (with a nod to Mansa Musa, of course)
2. Portugal (the great Spice Traders and explorers)
3. Carthage (the pre-eminent traders with and renters of Barbarians)
4. Swahili (the great Trading Kingdom of the African coast)
5. Iroquois/Haudenosenee (the Middlemen between the Dutch and the fur trade from the American Interior)
6. Haida (they traded from Canada down the North American Pacific coast to Baja in dug-out canoes: impressive)
7. Inca (Mountain Highways)
8. Venice (Not necessarily limited in founding new cities, but better at Commercially Flipping them or Buying them!)

Ottomans and Byzantium would fit here also, but I'd rather see the two of them paired up in a DLC with a End of the Middle Ages Scenario or a Silk Road Scenario.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I would love to see an "Age of Discovery" themed Xpac, which contains Civs which pioneered new concepts and ideas or have something to do with (or against) colonialism in general.

1) Akkad (the first true empire in the sense of it)
2) Hatti (the first peace treaty)
3) Iroquois (the first native american tribe to form a Confederacy, which inspired the Founding Fathers' Congress)
4) Maya (had a complex understanding of mathematics and astrology)
5) Portugal (the first empire to circumnavigate the globe)
6) Ottomans (the first of the three "Gunpowder Empires", along with Savafid Persia and Mughal India)
7) Ethiopia (successfully fought off Italy, as well as one of the oldest sovereign states in the world)
8) Maori (descendants from ancient way-faring polynesians, also a region relatively unrepresented in Civ 6 so far)
9) Italy (the birthplace of the Renaissance)
Alt leader: Louis XIV for France (the greatest ruler in French history, patron of the arts, under his reign Louisiana was settled. Definitel one of France's Golden Ages, I'd say.)

Okay, I won't hold anyone to alternate leader themes because Chandragupta is hardly keeping with the R&F theme.

You could possibly refine this even further and split it into two expacks, one about civic/technological discovery, and one about colonialism/exploration. I feel a much stronger conceptual unity between Akkad/Hatti/Maya/Ottoman/Italy vs. Iroquois/Portugal/Ethiopia/Maori. Might be worth exploring, although the double entendre does serve to somewhat tie them together.

We are overlapping a bit, especially in the Civ List, but here's my Expansion Idea:

Traders and Tycoons/Profit and Gloss/To Get Rich Is Glorious

An expansion built around Gold and completely Buffing Up the Trade System, including:
1. Making the Sea relevant again, with longer and more lucrative Trade Routes over water, earlier (coastal) sea faring, and extending waterborne Trade route advantages to Rivers - and Canals.
2. Making it possible to trade with 'barbarians', Rent mercenaries from Barbarians, City States OR other Civs (and make a profit renting out your own Units)
3. Use Envoy-like Factors or Agents to set up Commercial Enterprises in City States or other Civs, later expanding them into International Corporations -
4. OR International Banks, which can loan Gold to Civs or City States, but not paying them back can cost you.
5. Commercial Dark and Golden Ages - the Boom and Bust cycle: with certain Policies (Free Market, Capitalism, Laissez-faire, etc) you can multiply your Gold intake, until the market 'corrects' with Amenity, Loyalty, and Gold penalties.
6. 'National Wonders' and Wonders related to Trade and Commerce: East India Company, The National Bank, the Grand, Erie, Suez, or Panama Canals, River Rouge
7. Railroads, Containerized Shipping, National Highway Systems, and other late-game technologies that multiply Trade and Gold
8. A revamping of Resources so that it is possible, from early in the game, to have a Monopoly on a Resource, with major Gold/Trade benefits, but later in the game many 'Natural' Resources will be replaced or supplemented by Manufactured Resources worth even more to your own Civ and in International Trade (think Automobiles, Consumer Electronics, etc)
9. A new Victory Type: Commercial, in which your Civ dominates World Trade, Banking and Commerce: "We're not only wearing your blue jeans, we're paying you top price for them!"

Civilizations related to Trade are legion, and many already in the game could get Alternate Leaders that reflect their Commercial Influences, but new Civs might be:

1. Mali (with a nod to Mansa Musa, of course)
2. Portugal (the great Spice Traders and explorers)
3. Carthage (the pre-eminent traders with and renters of Barbarians)
4. Swahili (the great Trading Kingdom of the African coast)
5. Iroquois/Haudenosenee (the Middlemen between the Dutch and the fur trade from the American Interior)
6. Haida (they traded from Canada down the North American Pacific coast to Baja in dug-out canoes: impressive)
7. Inca (Mountain Highways)
8. Venice (Not necessarily limited in founding new cities, but better at Commercially Flipping them or Buying them!)

Ottomans and Byzantium would fit here also, but I'd rather see the two of them paired up in a DLC with a End of the Middle Ages Scenario or a Silk Road Scenario.

I really like a lot of those mechanic proposals. The only one I'm dubious about is the economic golden/dark ages; I'm not sure why we'd need a separate system running in tandem when you could just add a more explicit economic influence to the current golden/dark age mechanic. Then again, I really just don't like the golden/dark age mechanic as it is so maybe that just needs a complete revamp. I also don't want national wonders back because many civs under the current regime would be left out of that mechanic altogether. But adding wonders with specific economic upgrade trees would be kind of nifty.

I like your spread of civs, they make sense. I would personally swap the Iroquois for something like the Tamil, Taino, or Tonga, if only because a lot of their "trading middleman" identity seems to have been appropriated by the Cree. But I'm trying to keep commentary mostly to consistency of theme and I think it's very tightly conceived.

However, I never knew that the Haida traded as far as Baja. Do you have any sources for me to catch up on this?

 

[clapyourhands]

I'm thinking a possible theme would be something like "Moment of Glory", which would be civs that at a short moment in time achieved something incredible, even if it fell apart shortly afterwards. Civs that already exist in the game that fit this bill would be the likes of Macedon or to a lesser extent Mongolia. Another way to frame it would be civs that have an iconic leader that represents this pinnacle of greatness. Mali under Mansa Musa would fall under this for great wealth, and Byzantium under Justinian for reconquering former Roman lands. Essentially the pack would represent civs that had a short moment in the world spotlight, during their moment in the spotlight.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I really like a lot of those mechanic proposals. The only one I'm dubious about is the economic golden/dark ages; I'm not sure why we'd need a separate system running in tandem when you could just add a more explicit economic influence to the current golden/dark age mechanic. Then again, I really just don't like the golden/dark age mechanic as it is so maybe that just needs a complete revamp. I also don't want national wonders back because many civs under the current regime would be left out of that mechanic altogether. But adding wonders with specific economic upgrade trees would be kind of nifty.

Rather than 'National' Wonders (a term I picked because it is relatively familiar to Civ-ers) think of them as 'Generic' Wonders: A National or State Bank could represent anything from the US First National Bank to the Bank of England; while Ford's River Rouge Plant was the first establishment to combine the moving assembly line, compartmentalized worker actions and integrated manufacturing, an exact copy was built in the Soviet Union as Zavod 183 - Kharkov Tractor Works, so even something as specific as that isn't really exclusive to one civilization. They would be, then, Wonders available more than once, to more than one Civilization in the game, but requiring much more investment in time and Production than an ordinary Building.

I like your spread of civs, they make sense. I would personally swap the Iroquois for something like the Tamil, Taino, or Tonga, if only because a lot of their "trading middleman" identity seems to have been appropriated by the Cree. But I'm trying to keep commentary mostly to consistency of theme and I think it's very tightly conceived.

With the Iroquois, I was trying to get some Geographical Spread by including a Eastern North American Native civilization. Not easily done, because the major evidence of Trade among North American Natives is in the southwest, across the Great Plains, and up and down the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers - not so much in the northeast!

However, I never knew that the Haida traded as far as Baja. Do you have any sources for me to catch up on this?[/QUOTE]

Glad you asked me this, because it made me go back and do what needs to be done constantly: check my sources. It turns out that the secondary source I used was not entirely accurate chronologically. That is, they based their trade distance information on the evidence of the use of Abalone shell in Haida artwork, particularly a blue-green Haliotis from southern California. BUT, according to an article in the Canadian Journal of Archeology (Vol 27, No. 2, 2003) on "Evidence of California-Area Abalone Shell in Haida Trade and Culture" that particular type of shell has been Carbon-14 dated to Post-Contact - after the Haida had copied sails from the Europeans and added them to their dug-out canoes. Which, by the way, they did so rapidly that English and American early accounts describe them as 'sailing natives' because the sailing rigs looked native, but they were in fact adaptations of European Sails to native dug-outs: a native adaptation rather than separate invention.
Meaning, the 'traditional' Haida trade in paddled boats probably did not extend as far as southern California - evidence only of southern Alaska to northern California, probably only north of or as far as San Francisco Bay area.
On the other hand, the Haida have a 'legend' about a voyage to Hawaii - which definitely sounds like a 'tall tale' except... Their Creation legend accurately describes the terrain and climate of the Pacific Northwest at the end of the last glacial period about 10 - 9000 years ago, so we cannot completely rule out that the tale was based on some kind of reality!

Thank you for asking the question, because it made me clear up the facts. On the other hand, it doesn't change the reasoning behind including the Haida as a 'trade' civ: they did a lot of coastal ocean trading (and raiding) over distances equalling anything does by Mediterranean Civs like the Greeks, Romans or Phoenicians, and did it in rougher seas.

 

[Phrozen]

Trading was a pretty big thing for all the PNW tribes since they were sedentary. The Potlach ceremony is pretty much ritualized trade deals.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Past and Present: Focuses on many aspects of Globalization today including technology advancements, culture and tourism etc. with the Civs look at their glorious past and prepare for the future.

1. Portugal led by Joao II
2. Maya led by Lady Six Sky
3. Assyria led by Ashurbanipal
4. Gran Colombia led by Simon Bolivar
5. Austria led by Maria Theresa
6. Samoa led by Queen Salamasia
7. Carthage led by Hannibal Barca
8. Navajo led by Annie Dodge Wauneka (This would be an interesting pick indeed) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_Dodge_Wauneka
9. Ethiopia led by Ezana
10. Benin led by Idia

Ottomans, Byzantines, Inca, Italy, Mali and Babylon would make good DLC .

Alt Leaders
Louis XIV for France
Vladimir Lenin for Russia

New Ideas and Mechanics:

Seaside Resort- stays the same
Camping Grounds- adjacent to forest/National Park
Ski Lodge- adjacent to Mountain/Mountain Natural Wonder
Desert Spa- adjacent to Oasis and built on desert tile
Lakeside Hotel- adjacent to Lake/Lake Natural Wonder

To make tourism a little more interesting and have more than just seaside resorts as a vacation spot.

Medical Branch: Adjacency bonus for food from other districts or farms? Needs to be adjacent to a city center. There could be a better name for it.
First Building: Aqueduct (Bath for Rome) Same as currently.
Second Building: Apothecary at Guilds: Can help out by restoring health in a siege and reducing the chance of a plague based off of adjacency bonus.
Third building is city exclusive:
Hospital at Sanitation: Restore even more health during a siege and reduces the chance of a plague but loses amenities in the process. (Nobody likes staying in hospitals) Exclusive with the Public Clinic
Public Clinic at Chemistry? or another technology we don't have: Restore even more health during a siege and reduces the chance of a plague but loses gold in the process. (They are free so no money) Exclusive with the Hospital.

Revamped Aqueduct.

The U.N. We can tie that in with emergencies, to where those members would automatically be asked to join in an emergency.
Hosting the Olympics- Voting could commence every once in a while when professional sports Civic is unlocked and those who have built a stadium and an aquatics center would have the chance to host. Participating civs and city states would vote. If they don't have the required buildings they would vote for an ally and City-states would vote for suzerain. As long as the Olympics would be going on they would gain certain amounts of amenities, tourism and loyalty.
Conservation project. Used to preserve a certain natural feature or resource by either not removing or improving them gaining more science from those tiles in the process with other members. Even more science if you establish a national park with them in the tile.
World Religion Council- For members who have founded a religion. Maybe this could deal with the religious emergency of some sort or be completely different?
International Banking Group- Establishing with at least one other Civ to temporarily help fund another Civ with currency problems. They at least need to have a commercial hub with a stock exchange and high amounts of money.
Global Awards Ceremony- Used to give awards in science, writing, art, and music. Participating Civs and city states vote on which Civs get these awards. Usually how many type of great people they receive. Hosting member would need at least a theater square/university and a royal society building in Govt. Plaza. (Think Nobel Prizes, Golden Globes etc.)

Get more Civs and city states involved with each other without having an actual diplomatic victory.

More tourism and travelling mechanics:
Railroads- Freight Trains and Passenger trains. Passenger trains can produce tourism through routes like the cruise ship, while freight trains could work like traders. Railroads can eventually go through mountains. Needs to build a Train Station.
Cruise Ships- Naval civilian units that grant tourism through it's route
Canals- Buildable for traders to pass, cruise ships and naval military units.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I'm thinking a possible theme would be something like "Moment of Glory", which would be civs that at a short moment in time achieved something incredible, even if it fell apart shortly afterwards. Civs that already exist in the game that fit this bill would be the likes of Macedon or to a lesser extent Mongolia. Another way to frame it would be civs that have an iconic leader that represents this pinnacle of greatness. Mali under Mansa Musa would fall under this for great wealth, and Byzantium under Justinian for reconquering former Roman lands. Essentially the pack would represent civs that had a short moment in the world spotlight, during their moment in the spotlight.

I actually like this theme. Examples I can think of, if that helps kickstart some ideas:

• Austria-Hungary - ultimately one of the shorter empires, but thanks to baby-making had a long reach. I think this is the only context I would ever approve of Austria as a civ, since outside of Maria Theresa I think it's superfluous.
• Bulgaria - pretty huge empire that ultimately didn't last very long.
• Huns - obviously.
• Mexico - pretty short-lived but highly influential empire. California or Texas could also theoretically fit this concept.
• Palmyra - I really shouldn't even be mentioning this because I think it's too thin of a concept, but Zenobia has her following.

Rather than 'National' Wonders (a term I picked because it is relatively familiar to Civ-ers) think of them as 'Generic' Wonders: A National or State Bank could represent anything from the US First National Bank to the Bank of England; while Ford's River Rouge Plant was the first establishment to combine the moving assembly line, compartmentalized worker actions and integrated manufacturing, an exact copy was built in the Soviet Union as Zavod 183 - Kharkov Tractor Works, so even something as specific as that isn't really exclusive to one civilization. They would be, then, Wonders available more than once, to more than one Civilization in the game, but requiring much more investment in time and Production than an ordinary Building.

Ah, yes. I support this concept then. We technically already have it in the "Great Library" and "Oracle," which although technically derived from specific building have always been fairly vague and unnecessary as wonders when we already have the Alexandrian lighthouse and the Oracle is vastly overrating Delphi's importance as architecture or cultural center. I consider them generics, anyway.

With the Iroquois, I was trying to get some Geographical Spread by including a Eastern North American Native civilization. Not easily done, because the major evidence of Trade among North American Natives is in the southwest, across the Great Plains, and up and down the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers - not so much in the northeast!

This is true. And now that you mention it I would also add the Pueblo and Mississippian to my list of replacements, lol. Honestly there could be an entire expack just with Amerindian trading civs, and I'd be completely fine with that.

Glad you asked me this, because it made me go back and do what needs to be done constantly: check my sources. It turns out that the secondary source I used was not entirely accurate chronologically. That is, they based their trade distance information on the evidence of the use of Abalone shell in Haida artwork, particularly a blue-green Haliotis from southern California. BUT, according to an article in the Canadian Journal of Archeology (Vol 27, No. 2, 2003) on "Evidence of California-Area Abalone Shell in Haida Trade and Culture" that particular type of shell has been Carbon-14 dated to Post-Contact - after the Haida had copied sails from the Europeans and added them to their dug-out canoes. Which, by the way, they did so rapidly that English and American early accounts describe them as 'sailing natives' because the sailing rigs looked native, but they were in fact adaptations of European Sails to native dug-outs: a native adaptation rather than separate invention.
Meaning, the 'traditional' Haida trade in paddled boats probably did not extend as far as southern California - evidence only of southern Alaska to northern California, probably only north of or as far as San Francisco Bay area.
On the other hand, the Haida have a 'legend' about a voyage to Hawaii - which definitely sounds like a 'tall tale' except... Their Creation legend accurately describes the terrain and climate of the Pacific Northwest at the end of the last glacial period about 10 - 9000 years ago, so we cannot completely rule out that the tale was based on some kind of reality!

This is some pretty neat stuff. And still reaching the bay area is no small feat. I'd say that puts them comfortably in the same range as Oman, Tamil, Taino, and Phoenicia. Not as far as Venice, Genoa, or the Polynesians, but certainly enough to make them a strong candidate in my opinion. I also like totem poles.

Thank you for asking the question, because it made me clear up the facts. On the other hand, it doesn't change the reasoning behind including the Haida as a 'trade' civ: they did a lot of coastal ocean trading (and raiding) over distances equalling anything does by Mediterranean Civs like the Greeks, Romans or Phoenicians, and did it in rougher seas.

Oh no, I wasn't disputing their merit. I just had never heard of them traveling that far and consequently never thought much of the idea. I'm certainly more supportive of them now, although it might take a little more meditation on the subject for me to want them over my growing list of naval civs. Again, we could have a full expack of naval explorers and I'd be extremely happy. Maybe they should just make a "Rising Tide" expack lol.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

This is some pretty neat stuff. And still reaching the bay area is no small feat. I'd say that puts them comfortably in the same range as Oman, Tamil, Taino, and Phoenicia. Not as far as Venice, Genoa, or the Polynesians, but certainly enough to make them a strong candidate in my opinion. I also like totem poles.

The Haida could be a Graphic Artist and Civ Designer's Dream Civ. There were actually 6 different kinds of 'totem poles' of which my favorite is the 'Shame Pole' where you made a pole illustrating in graphic form what somebody had done to P... You Off, and then put it up in a very public place, to shame them. What a concept: a Civic-Offensive Monument! Not to mention the more 'normal' poles that illustrated religious, personal, or clan themes, not to mention their Head Canoes where the whole front of the boat was brightly decorated in the owner's or local chief's personal symbols. Also the cedar plank houses, trading and raiding, and potential to start coastal boating early and then later add Sails!

And, of course, Civ is long, long overdue for some representation of the Pacific Coast natives, which represent a unique economic (dense population hunter-gatherers) and artistic set of cultures.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Okay, so I have a more semi-serious idea that is inspired by my proposed "Energy Grid" district, inspired by Alexander's Hetaroi.

Terra Firma

• Navajo/Pueblo - desert tiles
• Mali - desert tiles
• Inuit (Greenland) - arctic tiles
• Siberia - arctic tiles
• Tonga - ocean tiles
• Taino/Arawak - ocean tiles
• Inca - mountain tiles
• Tibet - mountain tiles

Each civ would get improvements that can only be built on specific terrain. No unique districts because development doesn't generally get to that point in climate extremes. However, a new universasl district is added along with a new score: Carbon. Carbon accumulates per city based on production and amenities and affects terrain's appeal and resources, as well as happiness.

Energy Grid

• Recycling Center - reduces Carbon in city tiles.
  
• Biorefinery - converts food into production.
• Wind Farm, Solar Park, Therm Pump, Hydro Dam - built on hills/plains, desert/grassland, tundra/snow, or near coast/river, respectively. Reduce Carbon and increase production.

Other Potential Mechanics (that I haven't thought through completely)

• Terrain Changes - Global cumulative Carbon emission functions as a sort of secondary world congress. Past certain levels, terrains begin to change, first slowly but faster as carbon emissions rise. Marshes turn into plains, lakes turn into canyons, and oases turn into deserts. Ice disappears and arctic/snow terrain turns into tundra. Deforestation turns tiles into deserts, but reforestation can be an improvement which replaces forest tiles and both restores appeal and lowers Carbon in the city. Returning global Carbon emissions below a certain threshold makes all "wet" tiles begin slowly returning. I imagine it would make sense to allow conservation treaties to be made with civs, as well as giving many of these new civs certain environmentalist agendas.
  
• Drought Cycles - Brief periods of regional abundance and scarcity with respect to resources and water sources. Rivers and lakes would dry up in droughts. Forests would repopulate in monsoons. Water towers would be a new building in the Aqueduct district to protect against droughts.
  
• Natural Disasters - Certain terrain would have risks of natural disasters. Tornadoes (plains), avalanche (tundra/snow), floods (marshes/rainforests), tsunamis (coastal tiles), brushfires (grasslands, woods) can cover up to four tiles. These destroy improvements and render terrain useless for a few turns. Sandstorms/Blizzards/Typhoons only appear randomly in a single tile for one turn, but halt movement on desert/arctic/mountain/water tiles and may kill units.
  
• Public Health - Could be affected by Carbon levels. Food yield reduced. Higher incidence of sickness. Could be built out into a second "Emergency" district with a fire department (mitigate natural disaster damage); hospital (mitigate sickness); police department (mitigate crime).

 

[fredrikslicer]

Glory of Rome:

New civs:
Byzantium
- Leader: Alexis Komnenos
Turks
- Leaders: Mehmet II, Alp Arslan
Goths
- Leaders: Alaric, Theoderic
Gaul
- Leaders: Vercingetorix, Postumus
Carthage
- Leaders: Hasdrubal I
Berber
- Leaders: Yusuf Ibn Tashfin, Massinisa

New leaders:
Zenobia
Aurelian
Arminius
Charlamagne
Khosrow
Mithrades

New Mechanichs:
Culture/Ethnicity mechanics
Expanded religion mechanics (As related to Culture/Ethnicity mechanics)
Expanded city mechanics (As related to Culture/Ethnicity mechanics)
Expanded diplomacy
Expanded macro warfare
Expanded economy mechanics
Expanded Barbarian mechanics and Interactions
Improved AI (because we allways need imporved AI)

 

[Michaelf7777777]

Theme: Colonialism

New Civs:
1. Portugal (Henry the Navigator)
2. Carthage (Dido)
3. Iroquois (Molly Brant)
4. Argentina (Eva Peron)
5. Vietnam (Ho Chi Minh)
6. Maori (Whina Cooper)
7. Ashanti (Yaa Asantewaa)
8. South Africa (Nelson Mandela)
9. Ndongo (Anna Nzinga)

New Leader:
10. Spain (Isabella)

Theme: Diplomacy and City States

New Civs:
1. Habsburgs (Maria Theresa)
2. New Zealand (Peter Fraser)
3. Switzerland (Guillaume-Henri Dufour)
4. Iroquois (Jigonhsasee)
5. Ashanti (Osei Kofi Tutu I)
6. Singapore (Lee Kuan Yew)
7. Hittites (Puduhepa)
8. Maya (Lady Xoc)

New Leaders:
9. Germany (Otto von Bismarck)
10. China (Yongle Emperor)

Theme: War

New Civs:
1. Sweden (Gustavus Adolphus)
2. Ottomans (Mehmed II)
3. Benin (Idia)
4. Maya (Lady Xoc)
5. Ashanti (Yaa Asantewaa)
6. Siam (Naresuan the Great)
7. Inca (Pachacuti)
8. Hittites (Muwatalli II)

New Leaders:
9. Arabia (Zenobia)
10. France (Joan of Arc)

Theme: Religion

New Civs:
1. Hittites (Puduhepa)
2. Tibet (Songtsen Gampo)
3. Judea (Salome Alexandra)
4. Ukraine (Olga of Kiev)
5. Papal States (Urban II)
6. Berbers (Dihya)
7. Maya (Lady Xoc)
8. Celts (Diviciacus)

New Leaders:
1. France (Joan of Arc)
2. Arabia (Harun al-Rashid)

Theme: Economy and Trade

New Civs:
1. Mali (Mansa Musa)
2. Byzantines (Irene of Athens)
3. Phonecia (Dido)
4. Singapore (Lee Kuan Yew)
5. Portugal (Henry the Navigator)
6. Ottomans (Roxelana)
7. Creek (William McIntosh)
8. Palmyra (Zenobia)

New Leaders:
9. Korea (Empress Myeongseong)
10. Mongols (Kublai Khan)

Theme: Wonders

New Civs:
1. Byzantines (Theodora)
2. Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar II)
3. Inca (Pachacuti)
4. Granada (Muhammad I)
5. Tibet (Ngawang Lobsang Gyatso)
6. Celts (Cartimandua)
7. Maya (Lady Xoc)
8. Kilwa (Ali ibn al-Hassan Shirazi)

New Leaders:
9. Egypt (Hatshepsut)
10. Persia (Xerxes)

Theme: Rebels and Revolutionaries

New Civs:
1. Soviet Union (Lenin)
2. Vietnam (Lady Trieu)
3. Palmyra (Zenobia)
4. Celts (Boudica)
5. Ashanti (Yaa Asantewaa)
6. Gran Colombia (Simon Bolivar)
7. Hungary (Lajos Kossuth)

New Leaders:
8. France (Maximillian Robespierre)
9. America (George Washington)
10. India (Lakshmibai)
11. England (Oliver Cromwell)

Theme: Non-official Leaders

New Civs:
1. Ottomans (Roxelana)
2. Mughals (Jahanara Begum)
3. Byzantines (Theodora)
4. Carthage (Hannibal)
5. Argentina (Eva Peron)
6. Maori (Whina Cooper)
7. Vietnam (Lady Trieu)
8. Ashanti (Yaa Asantewaa)
9. Bohemia (Frantisek Palacky)

New Leader:
10. America (Benjamin Franklin)

Theme: Moments of Glory

New Civs:
1. Palmyra (Zenobia)
2. Vietnam (Lady Trieu)
3. Soviet Union (Nikita Khruschev)
4. Gran Colombia (Simon Bolivar)
5. Haiti (Toussaint Louverture)
6. Mercia (Aethelflaed)
7. Songhai (Askia the Great)
8. Judea (Salome Alexandra)
9. Inca (Huayana Capac)

New Leader:
10. Zulu (Cetshwayo)

Theme: Europe

New Civs:
1. Portugal (John II)
2. Byzantines (Heraclius)
3. Celts (Boudica)
4. Bohemia (Charles IV)
5. Austria (Maria Theresa)
6. Denmark (Margrethe I)
7. Sweden (Gustavus Adolphus)
8. Hungary (Stephen I)

New Leaders:
9. England (Elizabeth)
10. Russia (Catherine the Great)

Theme: Asia

New Civs:
1. Vietnam (Trung Trac and Trung Nhi)
2. Siam (Naresuan the Great)
3. Singapore (Lee Kuan Yew)
4. Malacca (Parameswara)
5. Philippines (Manuel Quezon)
6. Afghanistan (Ahmad Shah Durrani)
7. Mughals (Jahanara Begum)
8. Sri Lanka (Parakramabahu I)

New Leaders:
9. China (Wu Zeitan)
10. Korea (Empress Myeongseong)

Theme: Africa

New Civs:
1. Berbers (Dihya)
2. Benin (Idia)
3. Madagascar (Ranavalona I)
4. Mali (Mansa Musa)
5. Ethiopia (Taytu Betul)
6. South Africa (Nelson Mandela)
7. Kilwa (Ali ibn al-Hassan Shirazi)
8. Ashanti (Yaa Asantewaa)

New Leaders:
9. Egypt (Hatshepsut)
10. Nubia (Amanirenas)

Theme: Middle East

New Civs:
1. Palmyra (Zenobia)
2. Judea (Salome Alexandra)
3. Babylon (Hammurabi)
4. Ottomans (Roxelana)
5. Assyria (Sargon II)
6. Armenia (Tigranes II)
7. Hittites (Puduhepa)
8. Lydia (Croesus)

New Leaders:
9. Arabia (Harun al-Rashid)
10. Persia (Khosrow I)

Theme: America's and the Pacific

New Civs:
1. Maya (Lady Xoc)
2. Inca (Pachacuti)
3. Iroquois (Jigonhsasee)
4. Argentina (Eva Peron)
5. Maori (Whina Cooper)
6. Taino (Anacaona)
7. Mississippians (Pushmataha)
8. Hawaii (Kamehameha I)

New Leaders:
9. America (John F Kennedy)
10. Mapuche (Janequeo)

Theme: Female Leaders

New Civs:
1. Denmark (Margrethe I)
2. Palmyra (Zenobia)
3. Taino (Anacaona)
4. Maya (Lady Xoc)
5. Vietnam (Lady Trieu)
6. Benin (Idia)
7. Byzantines (Theodora)

New Leaders:
8. Korea (Empress Myeongseong)
9. Russia (Catherine the Great)
10. England (Elizabeth I)
11. China (Wu Zeitan)

Theme: Second Leaders (With Different Capitals)

New Leaders:
1. England (Eleanor of Acquitaine)
2. Rome (Diocletian)
3. Spain (Isabella)
4. Russia (Olga of Kyiv)
5. France (Louis XIV)
6. America (George Washington)
7. China (Taizong)
8. Korea (Empress Myeongseong)
9. Germany (Frederick the Great)
10. Egypt (Hatshepsut)
11. Arabia (Harun al-Rashid)
12. Persia (Khosrow I)
1 3. Norway (Margrethe I)
14. Holland (Margaret of Austria)
15. Scotland (James VI)
16. Mongols (Mandukhai Khatun)
17. Poland (John III Sobieski)
18. Japan (Himiko)

Theme: Classic Civ Leaders

New Civs:
1. Babylon (Hammurabi)
2. Carthage (Hannibal)

New Leaders:
3. Aztec (Montezuma II)
4. China (Mao Zedong)
5. Egypt (Ramses II)
6. England (Elizabeth I)
7. France (Napoleon Bonaparte)
8. Germany (Otto von Bismarck)
9. Japan (Tokugawa Ieyasu)
10. Rome (Julius Caesar)
11. Russia (Catherine the Great)
12. Spain (Isabella)
1 3. Dutch (William the Silent)
14. Celts (Boudica)
15. America (Abraham Lincoln)

 

[dagriggstar]

8. A revamping of Resources so that it is possible, from early in the game, to have a Monopoly on a Resource, with major Gold/Trade benefits, but later in the game many 'Natural' Resources will be replaced or supplemented by Manufactured Resources worth even more to your own Civ and in International Trade (think Automobiles, Consumer Electronics, etc)

I can't say I've played rise and fall, but looking at it from the outside it seems kind of like the loyalty mechanic does what amenities were kind of supposed to do, making them a bit redundant in my eyes. If they changed buildings that give amenities into buildings that give loyalty bonuses instead, then reclassify luxury resources as economic resources, I think the game would be better (obviously in theory). Then you can say something like each copy of the same economic resource nets you an increasing amount of gold. Say 1 copy = 1 gold, 2 copies = 3 gold, 3 copies = 6 gold, 4 copies = 10 gold. Reward monopolies that way.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Let's melt the internet with an all-female non-european Xpac . possible abilities in (brackets)

1. Assyria (Shammuramat) (Better great works of writing, cultural bonus upon city conquest)
2. Hatti (PuduHepa) (Science from mines and Industrial Zones, combat boost during Emergencies)
3. Morocco (Sayyida Al-Hurra) (gain gold upon defeating enemy units, capture defeated ships)
4. Ashanti (Yaa Asantewaa) (City projects accelerate city growth, gain relics from religious historical moments)
5. Ethiopia (Taytu Betul) (gain a unit in every city you own upon being DOW'd, extra loyalty for every __faith in a city. )
6. Iroquois (Jigonsahsee) (forests provide adjecency to farms and a free Iroquois trading posts in cities build next to them, time to earn envoys reduced by n% for every alliance level you have)
7. Maya (Lady Six Sky) (double era score in Dark Ages, half cost patronage in Golden Ages)
8. Vietnam (Trung Trac) (Cities that rebel thanks to your loyalty pressure instantly join you instead of becoming free cities, all non-cavalry s are invisible to enemies when standing on rough terrain inside your borders.)
Alt: Wu Zetian (China) (Earn a free Governor title upon building a wonder)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I can't say I've played rise and fall, but looking at it from the outside it seems kind of like the loyalty mechanic does what amenities were kind of supposed to do, making them a bit redundant in my eyes. If they changed buildings that give amenities into buildings that give loyalty bonuses instead, then reclassify luxury resources as economic resources, I think the game would be better (obviously in theory). Then you can say something like each copy of the same economic resource nets you an increasing amount of gold. Say 1 copy = 1 gold, 2 copies = 3 gold, 3 copies = 6 gold, 4 copies = 10 gold. Reward monopolies that way.

Haven't had a chance to play Rise & Fall either (Mac user, probably have to wait until mid-March or later) but regarding Resources, I've long thought that the division of Resources into Bonus, Strategic and Luxury/Amenities categories was artificial and unrealistic. In fact, both actually and especially historically, the use of Resources depended on what are, in game terms, Technology and Social Policies/Civics.

For instance, once you have Coinage of some kind, Gold and Silver become not only Amenities, but also drivers of Economics and Production, in that they are practically required for the coins that drive markets and trade. BUT in the Information Era, Gold is used extensively in solid-state electronics manufacturing, which impacts both Amenities (personal electronic devices) and Science (computers, computerized research and manufacturing equipment). Copper is an early resource for tools and jewelry, but starting in the Industrial Era, is a requirement for electrification of homes, factories, and cities, so becomes a Production/Amenity Resource.
Horses are an obvious early Strategic Resource, but by the Atomic Era are obsolete in military applications (Units) BUT become a major Amenity item in Horse Racing, recreational riding and possibly, Gold producing from taxing Betting on the races.

So, if all resources are simply Natural Resources with their utility dictated by Technology, Civics and Social Policy adoptions/Levels, we gain a lot more flexibility, and potentially can also develop Man-Made/Manufactured substitutes for many 'natural' Resources: Paper money in the Industrial Era in place of Gold and Silver for economic/production benefits, while the Diamonds that were 'mere' Luxury/Amenity/Jewelry components suddenly become a Production-enhancer in the Industrial/Modern Era (cutting. drilling and metal-forming bits). And some 'Resources' might become virtually Unusable in late-game: Furs or Ivory due to the influence of environmental concerns/Naturalists in the Atomic Era and later, for instance.