Oh nice. I didn't realize that was allowed in HoF rules. These jungle starts I'm rolling are brutal so I will give that a shot.
Diety, Brazil, continents challenge
- Thread starter Thorak
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Oh nice. I didn't realize that was allowed in HoF rules. These jungle starts I'm rolling are brutal so I will give that a shot.
Didn't realise that was allowed either. Also I see that raging barbarians is allowed as well so turning that on.
Going from 25k tourism to over 40k is not a question of 10 turns, especially not since there were 3 civs which I didn't have control over so I had to put several musicians into each one of them. If my civs had the same amount of culture as in your game I would actually have finished at roughly the same turn. Interestingly enough, I researched airport instead of internet and with international games and carnival I had the same amount of tourism as you so airport is surely a faster victory than internet.
Anyway, making a new try by doing some heavy early warring to try to gain control of my continent before I meet other players!
Going from 25k tourism to over 40k is not a question of 10 turns, especially not since there were 3 civs which I didn't have control over so I had to put several musicians into each one of them. If my civs had the same amount of culture as in your game I would actually have finished at roughly the same turn. Interestingly enough, I researched airport instead of internet and with international games and carnival I had the same amount of tourism as you so airport is surely a faster victory than internet.
Anyway, making a new try by doing some heavy early warring to try to gain control of my continent before I meet other players!
Heh, I just followed the poland tradition/liberty strategy posted by tommynt. I am surprised at how much quicker that game went. I tried to analyze exactly why. And I can see the main reason being playing on pangea:
1) More land to settle. Even if one AI puts cities right next to you, you usually have other options while on continents I have had cases where I have only had 1 extra lux to settle and only 1 AI on my continent which makes it hard to manage happiness and trade.
2) More city states. These REALLY speed things up. They grant you happiness, free gold, free faith and more city states = more quests.
3) More trading opportunities. If I have 7 trading partners I don't really mind having 4 copies of one luxury as I can always trade away extra copies for gold.
I have made a few more tries, but trying to conquer a continent is simply slower than using the AI as trading partners so no go. So I will simply see if I can manage to get a quicker culture victory using some other setting than continent.
Hopefully someone else will step up and try to challenge your time!
1) More land to settle. Even if one AI puts cities right next to you, you usually have other options while on continents I have had cases where I have only had 1 extra lux to settle and only 1 AI on my continent which makes it hard to manage happiness and trade.
2) More city states. These REALLY speed things up. They grant you happiness, free gold, free faith and more city states = more quests.
3) More trading opportunities. If I have 7 trading partners I don't really mind having 4 copies of one luxury as I can always trade away extra copies for gold.
I have made a few more tries, but trying to conquer a continent is simply slower than using the AI as trading partners so no go. So I will simply see if I can manage to get a quicker culture victory using some other setting than continent.
Hopefully someone else will step up and try to challenge your time!
Cromagnus
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I'm not going to have time to try this challenge, but I'm thinking the fastest continents CV is warlike:
Wipe out everything on your continent, then cap everything on the other continent except one capital. Then as soon as you get another golden age, give back the capital of the first civ you wiped out, and nuke the last remaining capital on the other continent... so, now you only have one opponent... an oppponent who hasn't been generating ANY culture for most of the game. Boom, music bomb that one capital you just gave back. Having had zero cities for most of the game before being resurrected, theoretically his cultural output should be virtually nil compared to your music bomb. With effective Frigate rush this could be sub-t200. Can't imagine a faster way to do it, not on Deity anyway, with Sacred Sites being mostly off the table.
Wipe out everything on your continent, then cap everything on the other continent except one capital. Then as soon as you get another golden age, give back the capital of the first civ you wiped out, and nuke the last remaining capital on the other continent... so, now you only have one opponent... an oppponent who hasn't been generating ANY culture for most of the game. Boom, music bomb that one capital you just gave back. Having had zero cities for most of the game before being resurrected, theoretically his cultural output should be virtually nil compared to your music bomb. With effective Frigate rush this could be sub-t200. Can't imagine a faster way to do it, not on Deity anyway, with Sacred Sites being mostly off the table.
A questions then, can you make a continent domination victory as Brazil sub t200? I thought it was difficult to do it on pangea and this sounds tougher.
You first have to use land troops to conquer your own continent, then use ships to conquer some coastal civs on the other continent, and finally use land forces again (artilleries probably as archer units will be outdated). This sounds slower than t200 to me.
In my experience, there will be some civs which you simply can't reach with ships in most games. Also I always seem to lack iron to do the frigate rush, but I guess if I controlled the whole continent I should have enough.
You first have to use land troops to conquer your own continent, then use ships to conquer some coastal civs on the other continent, and finally use land forces again (artilleries probably as archer units will be outdated). This sounds slower than t200 to me.
In my experience, there will be some civs which you simply can't reach with ships in most games. Also I always seem to lack iron to do the frigate rush, but I guess if I controlled the whole continent I should have enough.
Cromagnus
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Well, I just now came very close to a t200 victory Domination Victory (t214) with England in a game where I made a TON of mistakes, so yes I do t200 can be done. Admittedly, England makes it easier, but I made a ton of mistakes in the game, including delaying Navigation by roughly 15 turns accidentally. I believe t160 is achievable with XB rush->Frigate Rush. It's *certainly* possible to clear a continent with 3-4 opponents by t130, which leaves you free to spit out Galleas until Navigation, upgrade, and go take over the world starting around t150. Yes, you need land units to support your navy in order to go inland, especially if a capital is inland. If it isn't, you can often get the inland cities in peace deal, then DoW again to get the coastal cities.
But you DO have strong land units after starting with XB rush. Knights with Range/Logistics XBs can totally take an inland capital on t160. If you go straight for Industrialization after Navigation, you have Gatlings for the final inland push. (probably no later than t180) You don't need Artillery until after t200 IMHO. Range/Logistics Gatlings can chew through cities and units until t220 or even later.
What makes it take longer is capturing EVERY city on the other continent. That's why I say t200 cultural.
True, that's optimistic, especially given that Brazil isn't as strong at XB rush or Frigate rush as England, but I do believe it's achievable. You have to be pretty solid at both XB rush and Frigate rush though, and simultaneously manage your cultural output, possibly build museums, archaeologists, manage your happiness, etc. etc. ... it's some serious juggling. Still faster, I would think, than an Internet-based win, because you don't need *nearly* as much tourism output to overwhelm a resurrected civ... I think. But honestly I don't know. I've never tried this tactic. And possibly t200 CV via Internet is achievable. :shrug:
But you DO have strong land units after starting with XB rush. Knights with Range/Logistics XBs can totally take an inland capital on t160. If you go straight for Industrialization after Navigation, you have Gatlings for the final inland push. (probably no later than t180) You don't need Artillery until after t200 IMHO. Range/Logistics Gatlings can chew through cities and units until t220 or even later.
What makes it take longer is capturing EVERY city on the other continent. That's why I say t200 cultural.
True, that's optimistic, especially given that Brazil isn't as strong at XB rush or Frigate rush as England, but I do believe it's achievable. You have to be pretty solid at both XB rush and Frigate rush though, and simultaneously manage your cultural output, possibly build museums, archaeologists, manage your happiness, etc. etc. ... it's some serious juggling. Still faster, I would think, than an Internet-based win, because you don't need *nearly* as much tourism output to overwhelm a resurrected civ... I think. But honestly I don't know. I've never tried this tactic. And possibly t200 CV via Internet is achievable. :shrug:
I'd like to see it be done though. Not saying it is impossible but I think you really need a LOT of rerolling, luck and skill to do it.
As you say, doing it as England is a LOT easier than Brazil as England is PERFECT to do that kind of double conquest as both their UU:s are suited to do this.
As you say, doing it as England is a LOT easier than Brazil as England is PERFECT to do that kind of double conquest as both their UU:s are suited to do this.
Cromagnus
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Oh yes, no doubt. England is designed for Continents Domination. Clearly.
Maybe I'm wrong though... a quick glance at the HOF shows that there aren't *any* Continents Domination Victories in the HOF on Standard/Standard/Deity faster than the attempt I just submitted. Maybe I'm hallucinating, but I could swear that people frequently win Continents Domination pre-t200.
Well, I have a hard time seeing it as pangea play is simply SOOO much quicker due to the points I have given in a previous post. You just have so many advantages in pangea play.
And continents I think should normally be rather difficult as you need to conquer both on land and on sea so I beleive pangea would be much faster. I am not sure what turn people manage to do a pangea non-zulu win either but I guess people are struggling to get it done lower than 200 there as well?
And continents I think should normally be rather difficult as you need to conquer both on land and on sea so I beleive pangea would be much faster. I am not sure what turn people manage to do a pangea non-zulu win either but I guess people are struggling to get it done lower than 200 there as well?
Cromagnus
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For Pangaea, I would say if you're a top tier player, you can pull off t180 with an artillery rush, t150 with a camel archer, keshik or XB rush. I personally have never pulled off a t150 rush on Standard/Standard/Deity, but I'm not a top-tier Domination player. I'm getting better though, and I do believe I could manage a t180 XB rush on Pangaea.
I guess after all this talk, I'll just have to try a Brazil Continents Domination now, just to prove a point.
Moriarte: Are you done with this challenge, or are you up for trying a Brazil Continents Domination with me?
I guess after all this talk, I'll just have to try a Brazil Continents Domination now, just to prove a point.
Moriarte: Are you done with this challenge, or are you up for trying a Brazil Continents Domination with me?
Hehe, should be interesting.
One thing about your plan though. I am not sure it is allowed according to the banned exploits thread:
"Selling Cities
- You may sell cities to the AI.
- However, any city sold to the AI may not be reacquired, either by capturing it, or receiving it in a peace deal.
- Cities gifted to the AI, or lost in a peace deal, may be reacquired. "
You said you wanted to ressurect a dead AI and I can't see how you would do that without recapturing the gifted city.
Still, I think if you limit the last standing AI to a single city and bombard him with a musician or 2 you should most likely win anyway but just pointing out something which might stop you from recording the time in HoF...
One thing about your plan though. I am not sure it is allowed according to the banned exploits thread:
"Selling Cities
- You may sell cities to the AI.
- However, any city sold to the AI may not be reacquired, either by capturing it, or receiving it in a peace deal.
- Cities gifted to the AI, or lost in a peace deal, may be reacquired. "
You said you wanted to ressurect a dead AI and I can't see how you would do that without recapturing the gifted city.
Still, I think if you limit the last standing AI to a single city and bombard him with a musician or 2 you should most likely win anyway but just pointing out something which might stop you from recording the time in HoF...
Cromagnus
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Oh, hmmm. I'd have to trick another AI into capturing his last city, then capture it later. Which means leaving one AI alive on my continent with only that city... That definitely makes it harder. 
Or I could just leave an AI with one worthless city and keep him at war, pillaging him and preventing him from growing/expanding... that might be easier, and should still greatly limit his cultural output.
EDIT: I'm going to give this a shot! I got sick (mixed blessing?) so I have some time to try this. It's going to be tricky.
My big dilemma is that to avoid violating HOF rules, I basically need to trick one AI (say Genghis) into capturing another AI's capital, then capture all of Genghis's cities but that one... and spend the whole game with that city surrounded, preventing him from building improvements, settlers, etc. This way, I can easily capture that city later, liberate the original owner, and culture bomb my only remaining opponent, a guy who should have virtually no culture built up. Yeah.... This will not be easy...
Current plan:
Stage 1) Clear off my continent
* Standard Liberty 3-city CB Rush prioritizing fast NC.
* Wipe out my entire continent, razing every city I don't need, except for one capital that I trick another AI into taking. Somehow.
* If I do this before meeting anyone on the other continent, theoretically there will be no warmonger hit. My neighbor might denounce me but I don't think anyone will care since they never saw me cap any cities.
* Plant an academy with the Liberty closer
Stage 2) Build up a navy
* After Machinery and finishing off my neighbors, save up money and rush-buy universities.
* Mixed Exploration/Commerce, or possibly Exploration/Honor if Statue of Zeus is still on the table.
* Start building as many Galleas as I can as soon as I get Compass.
* Complete Oxford the turn I get Astronomy and bulb Navigation. Buy two caravels to explore.
* I won't be needing other national wonders, so I'll start annexing the good coastal cities at this point as soon as I can rush-buy courthouses.
* As I annex, each city will start building Caravels/Privateers.
* Meanwhile, I'll upgrade all my galleas, and DoW the other continent while the melee ships are being built.
Stage 3) Coastal invasion
* While my frigates destroy all naval resistance, my promoted XBs will swim over with my Privateers just in time to capture. If I time it right, I'll be able to upgrade to Gatlings for the inland cities. Heavily promoted Gatlings with a couple of Knights should mop up the rest pretty fast.
Stage 4) Finish cleaning up the other continent
* Razing everything I don't need, and capturing what I do, I'll eventually be left with only one enemy city on my continent, and one capital on the other continent.
* Liberate the first enemy city back to its original owner (wiping out the captor), then wipe out the last capital on the other continent.
* Somehow, time this with a golden age and the production of my GMs, and immediately music bomb my neighbor. He should have virtually no culture built up after being liberated. So 1-2 GMs should be enough.
If all goes well, t220 victory, or possibly earlier if I play it really well.
Thoughts:
Normally I'd go for 4 cities but I think I'm going to need the happiness headroom and the faster NC. Maybe I'll found a 4th city after NC.
Also, normally I'd bulb a GS with the closer. I typically get around 400 beakers from bulbing, which definitely gets you Machinery faster, but I ALSO need fast Navigation for Stage 2... and possibly Industrialization, because I need to wipe every city off the map, inland or not. So I might get Machinery slower than usual in order to get more long-term tech yield. This means I need to play optimally before t100 to still achieve fast Machinery...
This is a lot of rush-buying, what with the universities and courthouses. So, I'll be pillage-healing my way to glory on this one.
Normally I take Commerce for Big Ben/Mercantilism/etc, but in this case I think Exploration is the way to go. Exploration has +3 production for naval vessels, and I need to be pumping out ships fast, because my turn-to-victory will be determined by how quickly I finish the frigate rush. Plus, I love the happiness in Exploration.
I can't afford to take cities in peace deals... they'll raze down too slowly, and the happiness burden of keeping them may be too much. And I have to take every city. So this is going to be slower than traditional Domination...
I may build 3 factories just for the happiness benefits of 2 bonus Ideology policies. Radio is too much of a tech investment for this plan.
For a t220 victory, normally I would also just go peaceful until a simultaneous frigate/artillery rush, but for this plan to work, I need to take out a neighbor FAST, to cut off his culture gain.
This strategy is a house of cards. It could fail for any number of reasons. But, why not.
Or I could just leave an AI with one worthless city and keep him at war, pillaging him and preventing him from growing/expanding... that might be easier, and should still greatly limit his cultural output.
EDIT: I'm going to give this a shot! I got sick (mixed blessing?) so I have some time to try this. It's going to be tricky.
My big dilemma is that to avoid violating HOF rules, I basically need to trick one AI (say Genghis) into capturing another AI's capital, then capture all of Genghis's cities but that one... and spend the whole game with that city surrounded, preventing him from building improvements, settlers, etc. This way, I can easily capture that city later, liberate the original owner, and culture bomb my only remaining opponent, a guy who should have virtually no culture built up. Yeah.... This will not be easy...
Current plan:
Stage 1) Clear off my continent
* Standard Liberty 3-city CB Rush prioritizing fast NC.
* Wipe out my entire continent, razing every city I don't need, except for one capital that I trick another AI into taking. Somehow.
* If I do this before meeting anyone on the other continent, theoretically there will be no warmonger hit. My neighbor might denounce me but I don't think anyone will care since they never saw me cap any cities.
* Plant an academy with the Liberty closer
Stage 2) Build up a navy
* After Machinery and finishing off my neighbors, save up money and rush-buy universities.
* Mixed Exploration/Commerce, or possibly Exploration/Honor if Statue of Zeus is still on the table.
* Start building as many Galleas as I can as soon as I get Compass.
* Complete Oxford the turn I get Astronomy and bulb Navigation. Buy two caravels to explore.
* I won't be needing other national wonders, so I'll start annexing the good coastal cities at this point as soon as I can rush-buy courthouses.
* As I annex, each city will start building Caravels/Privateers.
* Meanwhile, I'll upgrade all my galleas, and DoW the other continent while the melee ships are being built.
Stage 3) Coastal invasion
* While my frigates destroy all naval resistance, my promoted XBs will swim over with my Privateers just in time to capture. If I time it right, I'll be able to upgrade to Gatlings for the inland cities. Heavily promoted Gatlings with a couple of Knights should mop up the rest pretty fast.
Stage 4) Finish cleaning up the other continent
* Razing everything I don't need, and capturing what I do, I'll eventually be left with only one enemy city on my continent, and one capital on the other continent.
* Liberate the first enemy city back to its original owner (wiping out the captor), then wipe out the last capital on the other continent.
* Somehow, time this with a golden age and the production of my GMs, and immediately music bomb my neighbor. He should have virtually no culture built up after being liberated. So 1-2 GMs should be enough.
If all goes well, t220 victory, or possibly earlier if I play it really well.
Thoughts:
Normally I'd go for 4 cities but I think I'm going to need the happiness headroom and the faster NC. Maybe I'll found a 4th city after NC.
Also, normally I'd bulb a GS with the closer. I typically get around 400 beakers from bulbing, which definitely gets you Machinery faster, but I ALSO need fast Navigation for Stage 2... and possibly Industrialization, because I need to wipe every city off the map, inland or not. So I might get Machinery slower than usual in order to get more long-term tech yield. This means I need to play optimally before t100 to still achieve fast Machinery...
This is a lot of rush-buying, what with the universities and courthouses. So, I'll be pillage-healing my way to glory on this one.
Normally I take Commerce for Big Ben/Mercantilism/etc, but in this case I think Exploration is the way to go. Exploration has +3 production for naval vessels, and I need to be pumping out ships fast, because my turn-to-victory will be determined by how quickly I finish the frigate rush. Plus, I love the happiness in Exploration.
I can't afford to take cities in peace deals... they'll raze down too slowly, and the happiness burden of keeping them may be too much. And I have to take every city. So this is going to be slower than traditional Domination...
I may build 3 factories just for the happiness benefits of 2 bonus Ideology policies. Radio is too much of a tech investment for this plan.
For a t220 victory, normally I would also just go peaceful until a simultaneous frigate/artillery rush, but for this plan to work, I need to take out a neighbor FAST, to cut off his culture gain.
This strategy is a house of cards. It could fail for any number of reasons. But, why not.
try this last gotm - every1 who spends as much time as u thinking about the game EASILY pull off a sub t150 dom with arabs
they are so straightforward u cant really do much wrong
3 or 4 city NC --> build horses and chariots --> try trigger GA --> tech chiv --> collect money to upgrade --> kill everything --> build 2nd army for some odd placed civ/ to send in other direction --> win 25 turns after chiv
in the gotm most important was maybe to do a 2nd army to the kind of isle like placed austria
edit: instead of doing some "tricks" u can allways kill 1 ai fast but leave it with a city and kill every new worker/settler ... - gives even quite some free settler and worker this way.
tommy - in the GOTM thread you mentioned you had video footage of that game. I would love to see how you did that by T126.
I just finished a game with Arabs (not GOTM) and won by T216, but it was a mix of camel archer and artillery rush. I guess in your game you don't even bother with education...
I just finished a game with Arabs (not GOTM) and won by T216, but it was a mix of camel archer and artillery rush. I guess in your game you don't even bother with education...
Moriarte
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Glory7 did sacred sites with Shoshone on deity Pangaea on t.170 or something. With Brazil it should be even easier. Even though it's continents, Brazil + desert folklore should do the trick just fine.
Cromagnus
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Well, I just meant that it's really hard to guarantee you'll actually GET sacred sites. I guess with infinite rerolls yes though.
Cromagnus
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I meant to do that GoTM but I got distracted by experimenting with the overflow exploit and missed the deadline. My personal best with camels is t180 or so, but I'm sure I can do better than that. I'm a lot better at getting people to DoW each other now. I still struggle with predicting necessary army size. I sometimes send too many one way and not enough the other way and it slows my victory down a lot.
I'll pass on that GOTM since it's over. Too many games I want to play.
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