differences in strategy for normal, epic and marathon

[Shurdus]

there are lots of threads out there asking what speed people play on, but not that many where the differences are discussed, or so I feel.

What I am curious about is what the differences are from a strategy point of view. What strategy from the normal speed does not work on other speeds? Is the balance shifting from the ancient and then renaissance era to other era's?

What difference does it make to the feel of the game, that is what I really want to know. Does marathon or even epic open up new opportunities and strategies, or is it the same but longer?

 

[madscientist]

I will speak from a marathoner point of view

Time for research, GP production and building construction is three times that of normal while unit construction is only 2 times. This generally favors a warring environment since you cna build units faster relative to buildings and it take longer to tech towards a new military tech. This can be good or bad for the human depending on how agressive they play or how lax they have been in unkeeping military (or recklessly targeting the liberalism beeline). Golden Ages are only 2 times of normal speed, thus GPs have a very slight decrease in value on marathon. Movement is still at the same speed as normal, thus you can run your army all over the map before the AI builds adequate defenses (or vice versa).

My reason to pursue marathon speed was that I like longer games to experience all the ages. To often I found the middle ages moving along too fast because I kept saying, "well gunpowder is only a little more down the road". I also got tired of bringing rifles/cavalry overseas only to find the enemy has infantry before I land.


Generally the opinion is the faster speeds are harder although the jury may be out on this still.

 

[CivCorpse]

I am a firm believer that the slower the speed the larger the map that should be played. Epic for large and marathon for huge. This tones down the advantage to having a military tech lead. Without making it too short lived to properly leverage. You should be rewarded for your efforts to get the military tech advantage but not to the point of giving you a free win just because you did.

 

[Tephros]

Generally the opinion is the faster speeds are harder although the jury may be out on this still.

From what I hear a domination victory is much easier on marathon, but cultural victories are easier on faster speeds.

Therefore I play marathon with huge maps. But it was more a preference for larger maps that made me choose marathon to make it seem balanced.

 

[PhroX]

I am a firm believer that the slower the speed the larger the map that should be played. Epic for large and marathon for huge. This tones down the advantage to having a military tech lead. Without making it too short lived to properly leverage. You should be rewarded for your efforts to get the military tech advantage but not to the point of giving you a free win just because you did.

In principle, I agree with you. In practice, my computer can't handle larger maps without getting really tediously long AI turns, yet I can only really play on Marathon. Quicker speeds just aren't Civ IMO. So, I guess I'm cheating by playing Marathon on normal maps

 

[GooglyBoogly]

Normal speed plays very similarly (at least to me) as CivII, I tried playing marathon but everything just seemed to take longer. But each to his own.

 

[macmert]

Well I used to play normal speed standard map, but after trying epic, even normal feels like fast... I am not a warmonger (I am not even a good civ player ) but when I wage war, I remember that I never used trebs and maces... Cause it passes so quick, after a few turns, with decent teching, you get gunpowder, while I try to build some maces, a better unit comes up, trebs turn to cannons then artillary, so when I try to form an SoD, it becomes dated when it is totally done, not to mention the huge money to upgrade...

But I dont think I can play marathon either, since I dont have the time... I have a job and I also play different games so I cant sit and play civ for 8 hours or so... I wish I had the time thou

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Good point on map size and game speed, trouble is I had a comp with only 512 of Memory and couldn't play large maps. I've since upgraded to 4 Mb's of Memory so I should give huge/Gigantic maps a try.

Trouble is processor and Graphics card haven't changed, though I think?? my comp was an ex server?? I bought it off an online Auction site, over 2.5 yr's ago, so getting dated.

P.S. If it shows 2 processors, does that mean I have 2, or is it a Dual core processor?? I think Physically there is only 1

 

[oyzar]

Bigger maps requires faster computers. I don't like to play on large or huge maps in SP as it bogs down my computer if playing for over an hour... Marathon is easier than epic which is easier than normal which is easier than quick, for military against the AI anyways. Since the AI's main weakness is its inability to control its military. Of course it takes longer for things to happen on normal than quick and on epic than normal and on marathon than normal. This also depends on the speed you play but for me playing marathon or sometimes even epic means it takes too long between things happening for it to be fun.

There are a lot of things that doesn't scale between speeds at all. Movement, pretty much all diplo stuff, resources popping from hills, turns for workers to move onto terrain is probably the most important. Things that do scale "normally" are tech costs, gpp costs, building costs. There are also a lot of things that scales inproperly, culture required for victory(less for quick compared to normal scale), hammers for units(less for marathon than normal scale), golden age length(0.8 for quick 1 for normal 1.25 for epic and 2 for marathon compared to 0.67, 1, 1.5, 3 for most other things) are some of them.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

marathon vs normal

1. don't avoid machinery to keep open the bulb for lib.; unless you're totally safe diplo wise, which is pretty rare...
2. feud. becomes a much more important tech;
3. WE are 10 times more powerful on marathon; works both ways, so try to trade for ivory if someone with ivory will attack you, even if it means giving away a ton of resources.
4. creative is much more powerful. In ~45 turns(chop + build the rest of a monument), there's plenty of time for the ai to slip a settler through what you want to be a blocking area;
Same for spiritual - you still have 5 turns limit between turns to change civics, but there are plenty of turns.
5. microing workers is less tedious; microing forest chopping is much more important - you'll have decent chance of regrowing if you selectively chop forests situated between other forests.
6. units costs 66% of what they cost on normal; you'll be in a world of hurt till you get a tech advantage over a neighbor like monty. Generally agg. neighbors make for a extremely hard start game on high levels.
7. diplo is 10 times harder; the time between requests is same as normal speed, so you'll have to choose sides as you won't actually be able to be friend with everyone. Anyone with -2 for a refused demand(cathy, kubbie, toku, sury, etc.) is a major pain; especially since they all can demand something every 20 turns(those which give -2 demerit for a refused request are also those that have the lowest times between 2 requests - 20 turns).
8. peaceful rex without a choke point is a fiction. By the time you have col/currency, everything on the map will be settled. You are either willing to tank hard at 0% or you have to accept having only 6-7 cities.

 

[Skallagrimson]

You are either willing to tank hard at 0%

That's me, woo hoo!

LOL, actually I usually play Epic, and REX out about 10 before I'm maxxed as to open land, which coincides with the tank point anyway. Libraries keep research going, cottages (even in future prod cities) keep maintenance going, and after alpha there's trade catchup to get to middle of the pack in tech while the economy recovers. Currency and CoL get the slider boosted back to ~50% in a jiffy.

 

[CivCorpse]

Bigger maps requires faster computers. I don't like to play on large or huge maps in SP as it bogs down my computer if playing for over an hour... Marathon is easier than epic which is easier than normal which is easier than quick, for military against the AI anyways. Since the AI's main weakness is its inability to control its military. Of course it takes longer for things to happen on normal than quick and on epic than normal and on marathon than normal. This also depends on the speed you play but for me playing marathon or sometimes even epic means it takes too long between things happening for it to be fun.

There are a lot of things that doesn't scale between speeds at all. Movement, pretty much all diplo stuff, resources popping from hills, turns for workers to move onto terrain is probably the most important. Things that do scale "normally" are tech costs, gpp costs, building costs. There are also a lot of things that scales inproperly, culture required for victory(less for quick compared to normal scale), hammers for units(less for marathon than normal scale), golden age length(0.8 for quick 1 for normal 1.25 for epic and 2 for marathon compared to 0.67, 1, 1.5, 3 for most other things) are some of them.

One thing you didn't mention is that tech times increase on huge maps as well. This is importanat for wars since you havbe so much more land to conquer. Marathon on normal maps is much easier than normal speed. IF you are the one with the military tech lead. Not so fun if you are fighting a tech superior opponent. It takes a looooooooong time to research the counter unit. Playing a huge map on quick speed is just a waste of time if you plan on ever fighting a war as well.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

One thing you didn't mention is that tech times increase on huge maps as well. This is importanat for wars since you havbe so much more land to conquer. Marathon on normal maps is much easier than normal speed. IF you are the one with the military tech lead. Not so fun if you are fighting a tech superior opponent. It takes a looooooooong time to research the counter unit. Playing a huge map on quick speed is just a waste of time if you plan on ever fighting a war as well.

Some people manage it somehow. On high levels, too. I'm not one of them, at least not yet. Maybe if I could put infantry into longbows on deity maps (without cheating!), it would feel easier .

 

[CivCorpse]

marathon vs normal

1. don't avoid machinery to keep open the bulb for lib.; unless you're totally safe diplo wise, which is pretty rare...

Unless your suicidal. especially on huge maps that I feel are the proper size for marathon. More AI means a diplomatic nightmare

2. feud. becomes a much more important tech;

see above

4. creative is much more powerful. In ~45 turns(chop + build the rest of a monument), there's plenty of time for the ai to slip a settler through what you want to be a blocking area;[/quote]
Though on a huge map blocking becomes much less important because of the greater distance between civs. Though if you start with someone close it can be a life saver.

Same for spiritual - you still have 5 turns limit between turns to change civics, but there are plenty of turns.

If you don't change too often:
A. you're probably not using the Spiritual trait properly
B. Spiritual becomes a little weaker because anarchy times do not scale properly. I can do a double civic switch in the early game for 3 turns of anarchy rather than the six if if scaled. also religion changes do not scale at all. 1 turn on marathon.

5. microing workers is less tedious; microing forest chopping is much more important - you'll have decent chance of regrowing if you selectively chop forests situated between other forests.

The same with micromanaging cities. They grow slower you you spend less time making sure the AI has not assigned a spy in your best production city. It also means that if you miss a turn switching around worked tiles the lost hammer/food or two is a very small percentage of what is required.
On a huge map this reduced micro per worker/city is offset by the larger number of workers and cities.

6. units costs 66% of what they cost on normal; you'll be in a world of hurt till you get a tech advantage over a neighbor like monty. Generally agg. neighbors make for a extremely hard start game on high levels.

I totally agree. Whoever is behind in military techs better be a quiet little mouse.

7. diplo is 10 times harder; the time between requests is same as normal speed, so you'll have to choose sides as you won't actually be able to be friend with everyone. Anyone with -2 for a refused demand(cathy, kubbie, toku, sury, etc.) is a major pain; especially since they all can demand something every 20 turns(those which give -2 demerit for a refused request are also those that have the lowest times between 2 requests - 20 turns).

Probably the hardest thing about marathon speed. Over the course of the game you have to deal with triple the diplomatic requests. On a huge map it gets even worse due to the number of AI making requests. And they are more likely to be the worst enemy of someone, so each decision can bring ruin. I find the biggest problem is the making your choices early in the game. An early game powerhouse may fall behind quickly. So your appeasing them may have cost you diplomatically with whoever takes the lead. And not appeasing them may lead to a loooooong marathon speed war where you watch your empire get chipped away into rubble.

8. peaceful rex without a choke point is a fiction. By the time you have col/currency, everything on the map will be settled. You are either willing to tank hard at 0% or you have to accept having only 6-7 cities.

Not true on a huge map. I typically find my economy tanked before all the land is taken. I can usually expand until 30% research recover a bit and grab some more land before the AI gobbles it up. Though city mainenence does seem to scale for map size.

 

[Anotherfan]

Just one question about slavery. To you get 3x hammers than in normal speed? So is it a good idea to chop out a granary, grow, and then slave out the first settler (which just costs 66%)?

 

[oyzar]

One thing you didn't mention is that tech times increase on huge maps as well. This is importanat for wars since you havbe so much more land to conquer. Marathon on normal maps is much easier than normal speed. IF you are the one with the military tech lead. Not so fun if you are fighting a tech superior opponent. It takes a looooooooong time to research the counter unit. Playing a huge map on quick speed is just a waste of time if you plan on ever fighting a war as well.

Sure tech costs are larger but maitenance is lower and there is more land per player in general meaning it is more important to expand if you want to keep up...

 

[SnowlyWhite]

Just one question about slavery. To you get 3x hammers than in normal speed? So is it a good idea to chop out a granary, grow, and then slave out the first settler (which just costs 66%)?

everything is x3, consequently slaved citizens too; that being said, if units cost x2, the settler is the only exception(costs x3). Every unit is x2(including worker) bar the settler(which is x3)

 

[Cashew]

Quick speed is a slave fest... people constantly get surprise attacked and slave defending units and such. It's also very precise in nature. Screwing up just 1 turn of battle can and often will result in you paying big time. It's also very VERY militarily oriented. Once you have a stack of units you NEED to use them or they're going to become obsolete in 50 turns.

 

[Hereditary Rule]

CIVCORPSE - can you explain how bigger maps make teching slower? I always play HUGE/EPIC but I was unaware of this. Thanks.

EDIT: Or techs cost more?

 

[JTMacc99]

Personally, I found Epic to be much more to my liking than Normal. As far as I can tell, the reason is mostly because it allows me to course-correct much more efficiently. I'm a sloppy micro-manager, and sometimes I just tell a worker to build a road because I don't want to take a look around to see where it might be better employed. At epic speed, I have a little more room to catch myself with this sort of thing, and send workers to where they really belong. Just the few extra turns here and there saved by by the longer game makes a big difference to my overall efficiency.