Difficult question for advanced players

morchuflex

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Hello.

I've been playing Civ3 on Emperor level for half a year now, and I'm still wondering about a difficult point: do you let cities construct buildings or do you sometimes set taxes to 100% (under a representative gov) to buy at least crucial buildings?

- In Civ2, after switching to democracy, I always would set taxes to 100% for at least 50 turns, and would buy MP, banks, harbors and CH to enable WLTPD and watch my cities grow at a furious pace.
- In Civ3 however, WLTPD doesn't help growth anymore and rush-buying costs twice as much as it used to. Yet, I still tend to play the same way: switch to Republic, then set taxes to 100% for 50 turns and "buy" a MP, an Aqueduct, a Harbor and a Granary in every city.

- If I don't do so, coastal cities with high trade but little production take forever to build them. Same goes for those poor cities lost in toundra islands that simply cannot grow until I give them a harbor. Furthermore, I want my cities to exceed 6 pop quickly (for the improved military support).
- However, doing so leads me to fall behind in technology, with the risk of missing Sistine and Bach, two important WoWs for a pacific builder.

So, I'd be really glad to hear advice from advanced pacific players.

Notes:
1. I insist on the word "pacific" (or should I say "pacifistic"? My English needs tweaking, too). I'm absolutely not interested in hearing anything like "just forget buildings and go smash some heads". I want advice about winning a pacifistic game (most likely by spaceship) on Emperor level.
2. I play on archipelago maps to minimize warfare. Many people contend that you cannot win on advanced levels without resorting to war, but I think that's only true for continent or pangea maps were massive, early confrontation is inevitable.
 
Pacifist or Pasifistic is fine!

I too play Emperor, and more often than not will go to Republic and play peacefully the rest of the game unless it's a minor war for a luxury or resource, or they are a weak civ. After I switch to Republic, however, I take advantage of the situation:

Most often than not, the AIs will go into Monarchy. Since in Republic you get +1 commerce for each tile producing at least one, this is your chance to out research them. If you can get to one tech before them, sell it to them for more techs and gold per turn (gpt). Gpt is the most important thing for research. The more you have, the faster you can research. So, once you get some more gold, research at a faster rate until you are up around 80-100% science.

Then, when you sell techs, also get lump sum. Then you can use that to rush buildings. And about your last point: I usually play continents, and as long as your a nice to your neighbors, it's pretty easy to avoid war, I think. :)

Does this help a little bit?
 
I can beat Deity without a major war. The key is great trading in the beginning, and a dominant diplomatic position near the end. As GA said, getting gpt from the AI is important because it allows you to set your research at 100% and still run a (often huge) income. I usually let my cities build their buildings on their own, because they don't take that long, and I don't build too much military.

EDIT: I prefer "Peacemongerer". :D
 
I always end up hated and eliminating my rivals one by one... in Communism, using sheer production power to counter the bloodthirsty, mindless AI hordes! :)
 
Thanks. However, I play Conquests, not Vanilla, and in Conquests the AI is much more reluctant to engage into gpt trades. Furthermore, they are often so completely broke that they won't offer more than a couple coins for a brand new tech.
 
I have no advice how to win peaceful or by culture.

You will probably not get away without some defensive wars, as the AI always attacks you if you are weak in the mil. advisor screen compared to them, and they see a chance to prey on your weakness.
 
It's called the "Sell luxuries and gpt ala Moonsinger so that if they attack you they're screwed" plan, Longasc. ;)
 
Interesting, Tomoyo. Please tell me more:

Debate! Be clear and precise, short sentences. No longer than 1000 words. You have 20 minuates. :)
 
I believe Moonsinger used a banking plan in one of here HoF tries to keep the AIs away that included trading gpt from Moonsinger for lump sum from the AI, so that the AI would not attack her since doing so would result in a significant loss in income, and I really never use it, and Moonsinger was the first to do so, and I think I will just keep this sentence going on a little bit more, and there is no way I can get close to 1000 words if I don't have anything to debate. ;)
 
I too like peaceful games.

In my experience the AI will trade as easily in Conquests as before.

Rushing buildings is a luxury but good if you can afford it. If you have extra gold go for it. Remenber that if the city is making a decent amount of shields it is usually better to rush a cheaper item and let it build the rest of the shields itself, otherwise the shields produced on the rushing turns are lost.

There are 2 cases in which I generally use cash rushes on a large scale. Firstly when I get the Great Library on harder difficulties. This allows my cities to be fully improved by the time I have to start researching again. Secondly, when I am running 100% science and still have a nice profit.

Intetionally holding back to rush instead is something I only do for key critical buildings. Even though it is a longterm investment it may not be a wise one if you risk falling out of the loop trade wise.
 
Going to a 100% cash economy is a perfectly good strategy; I do it rather often. (I'm also an Emperor-level player, roughly, but I've also won deity a few times.) There are a few things it sounds like you could do to make it more effective, though. Be warned I've never played C3C: I'm slowly picking up the differences, but may make a few mistakes in the meantime. Hopefully someone will come along after me and point out where I went wrong, if necessary. :)

I really don't know what tactics you're currently using, other than what you mentioned in your post, so forgive me if any of this is redundant or obvious to you already.

1) You mention "improved military support" for cities above size 6. Are you playing as a Monarchy? If you're playing builder style, Republic is infinitely superior. You get one extra commerce arrow for every worked tile in your empire that already produces commerce, and less corruption to boot. Your ability to stay current in research after the middle ages will greatly increase if you switch to one of the representative governments. If you *are* already playing as a Republic or Democracy, then you have no unit support -- increasing the size of your cities won't help in that regard.

2) Be selective in what you build (purchase). This probably goes without saying, but it's worth mentioning. If you have all 8 luxuries and a marketplace in a size-12 city, you do *not* need a cathedral, too. You can save a surprising amount of money this way. In fully corrupt areas, purchase as little as possible. Temple or library to expand borders only if necessary (you can even sell it again afterwards), marketplace for happiness, possibly aqueduct for population if you have the cash and happiness is not an issue. That's it. Irrigate everything and turn your excess citizenry into taxmen or scientists, whichever suits the situation. Make the city produce wealth. If you want to work the unused tiles, make more cities -- 2gpt for a hospital is too much to spend for a fully-corrupt city. If you have good territory, this tactic can net you easily 3 or 4 gpt or beakers per turn, per city.

3) Consider using your core's production strength instead of (or in addition to) cash to rush your builds. This won't always be appropriate or possible, but if you reach a position in the game where you have nothing necessary to build in your core cities, build military units instead of switching to wealth. The military units can be shuttled over to your developing cities and disbanded for a portion of their shields. This will allow you to retain your income for things like tech-buying. Five high-production cities with factory and power plant can turn out 20-25 cavalry in ten turns; these can in turn be disbanded for 20 shields apiece, which amounts to 400 or 500 shields total, enough for 4 or 5 harbor/marketplace type improvements. Switching those five cities to wealth for the same ten turns gets you only about the same amount of gold as shield-rushing would get you shields (pre-economics it gets you even less), enough to cash-rush only 1-2 improvements. In general, you come out way ahead using your production capacity.

4) Another thing you may know, but worth mentioning anyway: when behind in tech and trading for it: trade smart. Never, unless in dire need of it, buy a tech when only one civ knows it. You'll pay twice as much. Wait for two or more to have learned it. And even then, keep a sharp eye out for 2-fers, 3-fers and more-fers.

5) Don't forget about espionage. Starting sometime in the industrial ages, it starts to become cheaper to steal tech than to buy it. Take advantage of this -- get the necessary tech and crank up the old espionage machine. Worried about war? Don't be -- you're playing on archipelago and by this time should have a basic rail net and a couple of stacks of artillery, plenty to defend against the motley assortment of units the AI will throw at you once you've distracted them with two or three military alliances against them. (One more note on this: as far as I know, the cost/benefit analysis on 'steal safely' versus its opposite comes down on the side of the cheapest option. I'm not sure, though -- maybe someone could clarify.)

6) You can trade your resources, even if you have only one source. (You simply won't be able to use it yourself for 20 turns.) If you haven't done it before, you'd be amazed how much mileage you can get out of a single source of iron, for example. Even at deity you can get an entire middle ages tech just for one little piddling iron resource.

7) Whereever and whenever possible, request gpt in return for your trades instead of straight cash. In the long run, this will tend to bankrupt the AI, since they don't know how to budget properly. In the long run trading for gpt has an effect similar to starting lots of wars -- it will slow down AI research and decrease their cash flow.

8) And finally, the thing you didn't want anyone to say, warfare. You don't have to go all out for conquest to get a great benefit from it. A strike against a single civ, timed right (cavs vs. muskets or tanks vs. infantry are the best options), can give huge dividends. Not only do you gain the extra territory to power your victory, but you're also likely to be able to severely hamper the AIs in a way that you've probably been unable to take advantage of much in the past. Why? You're playing archipelago mostly -- that means far fewer wars than on other map types. The more the AI war -- as long as it isn't against you (and sometimes even when it is) -- the better off you are. When the AIs are at war, research slows down -- AIs have no concept of how to manage happiness in wartime as republic or democracy and usually wind up driven into less efficient governments. Trade routes are broken, so luxes are lost (and may become available to you). Trading of the techs they do learn gets severely disrupted. Empty spaces may open up in former enemy territory in which you can place a well-timed settler to secure a key resource. I played a deity-level SG once on a Pangaea where the AIs all unaccountably avoided war until into the industrial era, IIRC. The tech pace was unreal; although we were keeping in touch tech-wise, it was taking us practically everything we had to do so (selling our only iron while our cities were defended by warriors and horsemen in the late middle ages, for example). We got to railroads just as we were finally getting something more than cardboard cutouts for a military, only to find we lacked coal. Still underpowered, we organized a quick strike against one of our neighbors to claim it, and suceeded despite also having to fight off a half-hearted opportunistic war against us from the other side of our territory. That opened the floodgates; from then on out it was constant war, most of which we stayed out of, and the tech pace dropped to a crawl. We won by conquest, by our choice, but any victory condition would have been possible.

Consider phony wars, if you really don't want to fight: declare war on a distant rival, sign a few military alliances, and just play defense on your own island while the AIs duke it out.

I can't believe I wrote so much. ;)

Renata
 
@Renata:

Thank you for this detailed answer. I'll try to make good use of your advice.
As for military support: I AM playing as a Republic. In Conquests, Republic does have some military support: 1 unit for cities (size 1-6), 3 for towns (7-12), 4 for metros (>12). On the other hand, non-supported units cost 2 gold apiece. That's why it is so urgent to grow your cities beyond 6. Each time one of your cities reaches 7, you get 2 unit support for free, thus saving 4 coins.
 
You certainly can go 100% tax for a while and cashrush things, but I don't think it's the optimal thing to do. Get as many coins from the AI as possible (more become available after they've had time to build martketplaces and banks). Use those. Some cashrushing is advantageous, but it sounds to me like you're rushing way too many things. My advice is:

- Be much more selective about what buildings are rushed and where. Coastal cities maybe need a few things, but are tundra cities worth wasting cash on? Often the answer is no. Make certain you're getting more benefit than you're paying. In particular, not every city needs a granary. Ouch. That's a lot of cash and maintenance to pay. Use workers to move population between fast-growing cities (with granaries) and slow-growing cities (no need for a granary). Or just don't build workers out of slow-growing cities and just let them take time to grow/build their stuff. That's a lot of coin for little benefit.

- Rush intelligently. Don't rush with no shields in the bin (almost goes without saying, but I want everybody to be able to benefit). Try to short-rush (change to a cheaper project, rush that, and then change back) to save cash. Let them build some things on their own. Or at least part of it. Saves you an incredible amount of cash.

- You don't mention courthouses for Civ3. Are you fighting corruption intelligently? That can make a huge difference.

- You're pacifistic and you're drowning in unit support costs? I don't get it. I'm a warmonger, generally, use Republic, and rarely pay much in support costs. Why do you have so many units?

- Are you planning your cities intelligently? Freshwater builds saves a TON on aqueducts (both in terms of building and in terms of upkeep). Are you utilizing most of the squares for most of the game? Are you improving the squares well? General stuff.

- Try to get by without Bach's and/or Sistine's. Yeah, they're convenient, but trading for a couple luxuries (if you're pacifistic, you should be trading a LOT) gives as much benefit and those hundreds of shields can be used elsewhere. Heck, you probably don't even need cathedrals (unless you're going for 100K. I think of diplo/space as general peace goals).

- Corrupt cities aren't generally worth the gold. This goes back to what I was saying about minimizing the rushes. If the city is corrupt, it won't pay back for the rush. Be wary of that.

- What else do you need/want your cities to be doing? After you've done all this rushing, what do you have your cities build? On Emperor, it's not too hard to have good cities keep up with general building goals while doing research. Lesser cities can and should suffer a bit. They're more corrupt and not having every city perfect is completely acceptable (and usually a better plan).

HTH,
Arathorn
 
morchuflex said:
@Renata:

Thank you for this detailed answer. I'll try to make good use of your advice.
As for military support: I AM playing as a Republic. In Conquests, Republic does have some military support: 1 unit for cities (size 1-6), 3 for towns (7-12), 4 for metros (>12). On the other hand, non-supported units cost 2 gold apiece. That's why it is so urgent to grow your cities beyond 6. Each time one of your cities reaches 7, you get 2 unit support for free, thus saving 4 coins.

Thanks for the info. That *would* make harbors in corrupted little tundra towns a higher priority, I agree, but it's still should be low on your to-do list, especially given the cost of a fully cash-rushed harbor -- that's a heck of lot of 4gpt turns before it becomes cost-effective in and of itself. Focus on your larger corrupted cities first -- the ones that can pay for themselves easily by using taxmen or scientists.

Renata
 
Great thread. There's a War Academy article in here somewhere.
 
I believe Moonsinger used a banking plan in one of here HoF tries to keep the AIs away that included trading gpt from Moonsinger for lump sum from the AI, so that the AI would not attack her since doing so would result in a significant loss in incom

Don't think Moonsinger was first in using it, but she definitely maximized it (80k Sid).
Without knowing about that game, I used it in my Napoleonic Europe:Sweden SG, and I didn't consider it something innovative at all - just rarely used.

Something else about cash: Some traits really help here. COM is obvious, but SEA is even more useful here IMHO: The cheap Harbors mean you'll get every ultra-corrupt Fishing town to an useful size in no time, and half-priced Commercial Docks everywhere rule. REL helps, too; half-priced Temples help with hapiness in corrupt cities. AGR helps with Growth. England, Netherlands and Spain are the real economic powerhouses.
 
With C3C you have a great advantage in the late game. This works for me:

1. beeline to infantry tech, [ forgot the name of it ]. AI tends to go to communism/fascism first so you should be able to get this soon.
2. micro manage each city and freely use police and civil engineers.
3. keep peace, and research communism
4. build police stations
5. switch to communism if you have a lot of cities. In C3C, it is the most powerful govt type.

PF
 
About rushing in coastal cities in the core of your empire.

Try to calculate the time needed for the cash rushing to pay itself back and compare this with the time needed to build the building with the natural city production. While you might think this is too much work, it can give you a very good understanding of the benefits and disadvantages of rushing. It is of course not an absolute rule to use. Sometimes it is clear that the money can be used better in other ways.

For instance, you're wondering if rushing a bank would be usefull in a core coastal city. As the city can grow to size 12 and is a high commerce coastal city, you estimate its base commerce revenue at 35 when it reaches size 12 (just took a number here that is reasonable in a core coastal city in republic). You estimate your average tax percentage at 30%. This means that the city produces approximately 10 base gold per turn (30% of 35). This would be increased by 5 by building a bank while the bank has a maintenance of 1. So this would give you a netto gain of 4 gold per turn. Rushing a bank from 1 shield would cost 159 (shields) times 4 (gold per shield) = 636 gold. So it would take the city 636/4=159 turns to break even. The building is however build by natural production in far less then 159 turns so it would be stupid to cashrush it. You're not even breaking even.

In core coastal cities, it can be very usefull to cashrush offshore platforms, harbors and temples/libraries (for the culture expansion). Sometimes when you really don't know what to do with your money, you can rush other things. But very often it is not very cost effective.

Don't forget to pop rush in the beginning of the game in core low production coastal cities. It is one of the few instances pop rushing can be effective.
 
Roland Johansen said:
For instance, you're wondering if rushing a bank would be usefull in a core coastal city. As the city can grow to size 12 and is a high commerce coastal city, you estimate its base commerce revenue at 35 when it reaches size 12 (just took a number here that is reasonable in a core coastal city in republic). You estimate your average tax percentage at 30%. This means that the city produces approximately 10 base gold per turn (30% of 35). This would be increased by 5 by building a bank while the bank has a maintenance of 1. So this would give you a netto gain of 4 gold per turn. Rushing a bank from 1 shield would cost 159 (shields) times 4 (gold per shield) = 636 gold. So it would take the city 636/4=159 turns to break even. The building is however build by natural production in far less then 159 turns so it would be stupid to cashrush it. You're not even breaking even.
Interesting stanza, and clearly one of the (hopefully) few builder areas where I need to improve. Though I get the idea that you're developping here (I hadn't pulled out the whole math on it so far, so I wouldn't stop cash-rushing), I partially disagree for one simple thing. Imagine that coastal city only has a bank to build, and then I don't want to build any more improvements there because I have a plan to kill the AIs or the human opponents (in a PBEM). So I want that city to crank out ships like crazy afterwards. If I cash-rush the bank, then I'll be able to get ships sooner than if I wait for the city to naturally complete the bank. All in all, I trade some gold for some precious turns of military preparation, which can be a winner in PBEMs. Of course it requires a lot of gold, but that shouldn't be a problem. Now, if I believe that my plan will work, I understand that I shouldn't build or cash-rush the bank if I can't get the money back (ie. if my plan is to be completed too soon). But still, sometimes it's better to have a higher gpt revenue than just cash, but it's relatively minor.
 
kryszcztov said:
Interesting stanza, and clearly one of the (hopefully) few builder areas where I need to improve. Though I get the idea that you're developping here (I hadn't pulled out the whole math on it so far, so I wouldn't stop cash-rushing), I partially disagree for one simple thing. Imagine that coastal city only has a bank to build, and then I don't want to build any more improvements there because I have a plan to kill the AIs or the human opponents (in a PBEM). So I want that city to crank out ships like crazy afterwards. If I cash-rush the bank, then I'll be able to get ships sooner than if I wait for the city to naturally complete the bank. All in all, I trade some gold for some precious turns of military preparation, which can be a winner in PBEMs. Of course it requires a lot of gold, but that shouldn't be a problem. Now, if I believe that my plan will work, I understand that I shouldn't build or cash-rush the bank if I can't get the money back (ie. if my plan is to be completed too soon). But still, sometimes it's better to have a higher gpt revenue than just cash, but it's relatively minor.

It's not necessarily the choise between cash rushing the bank or buidling it by using natural production. You could also just not build the bank. It takes an enormous amount of time to earn back your investment (159 turns), so for the next 159 turns you will have less money if you cash rush then if you just skip the bank and just start building units. If the number of turns (to a break even point) is significantly smaller than this number (say 20 or so) then I would agree. But the numbers I thought up here are quite realistic (for a core coastal city)

A minor point: I was asuming the city is using a lot of coast/sea tiles and therefore has a low production. Otherwise the city could build the bank with natural city production in a reasonable time. Thus this city is largely useless for building militairy units. For a city with a large production, cash rushing is of course even less usefull.
 
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