Diplomacy

i like Krikkitone's ideas, especially the last!
there should be more options for small countries to intereact with the big one's, and the big one's should have other attractive alternatives to just annexing all the tiny fellas they find.

a change in civ4 which may help that - and i must admit im happy to see it as i always missed it - is the diplomatic option to ask a nation to declare peace with another and end the war, saving a small friend from a lost war. :)
 
Aussie_Lurker said:
You see, I think there you have truly nailed the key problem Robi D. Not sure if you are familiar with Superpower 1 and 2, but in that game the computer actually had no idea which nation you were playing-if that makes sense?? Basically, the computer had no choice to treat your nation the same as all the other AI nations, because it could not be certain which of those nations WAS the human player. Thats how it ought to be in Civ4 IMO.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

I'm not familiar with superpower, but the idea of the ai not acting differently to human players is something that civ would benefit from. I think the problem started back with civ2 when they introduced reputation for human players but somehow forgot to do it for ai players, while this effect has been toned down in civ3, the fact is its still there and is really frustrating. On a side note, one of the things i feel is a big problem, is the ridiculously small amount of gold required to get a civ to go to war with another one, for example it cost around 1500gold to try to steal technonogy from a civ safely but you can get a third civ to go to war with it for around 500 gold, now how does that make sense. Surely if steal a tech costs 1500 then to get a civ to war should at least be 3000 if not even more.
 
funny thing, robi d, is it can cost ~400 gold to get a puny, weak and obsolete nation to declare war on the #1 civ! its like a province with spearmen attacking a continent defended with infantry :|
 
Well as I said in other threads, Civ3 looks like a big deathmatch between human and A.I. ( a very very poor and miserable A.I. ).
The key is resources. Why a superpower could smash/destroy/burn/conquer/absorb a tiny and backward civilization? Because in their territory they have a lot of oil wells and they use oil just to do health baths.

In Civ3 the A.I. is strangely childish. They act like a 6 years old child.
When I break a treaty 4000 years before, they continue to blame me for that ( that's funny. Like if United States today would burn to ground Italy because 2000 years ago killed a great number of people ... ).
As said in first post, A.I. passes from an alliance to another without any logic in it. And, worse: if I have an agreement that's very profitable for the A.I., they prefer to start a world war against me.
 
You could look at it as when I break a treaty only 100 turns ago, they treat me like I just broke it, oh wait, you did just break it...
 
Herr Doktor said:
In Civ3 the A.I. is strangely childish. They act like a 6 years old child.
When I break a treaty 4000 years before, they continue to blame me for that ( that's funny. Like if United States today would burn to ground Italy because 2000 years ago killed a great number of people ... ).
As said in first post, A.I. passes from an alliance to another without any logic in it. And, worse: if I have an agreement that's very profitable for the A.I., they prefer to start a world war against me.

Again it makes sense, You as the Romans hasve shown yourself to be an aggressive treaty breaker, and the fact is you as the player are not going to change that component of your character/strategy in the 3-4 hours it takes to play 2000 years. Therefore it makes sense for the American AI to think it would be much better conquering your cities than trading with them.
 
warpstorm said:
You could look at it as when I break a treaty only 100 turns ago, they treat me like I just broke it, oh wait, you did just break it...
thats looking at a player, not a nation :P
 
Krikkitone said:
Again it makes sense, You as the Romans hasve shown yourself to be an aggressive treaty breaker, and the fact is you as the player are not going to change that component of your character/strategy in the 3-4 hours it takes to play 2000 years. Therefore it makes sense for the American AI to think it would be much better conquering your cities than trading with them.

There's no logic in it, except for the "great deathmach play", but the problem is: what Civilization is? A big deatchmatch for civilizations, or a sort of simulation of reality?
For now, it is only a deatchmatch and your logic is correct but I can play 2 or 3 games like a deatchmatch ( in fact I did only 4-5 great games with Civ3 ) then it suddenly loose its charm.
The first Civilization I played was on Amiga 500, that was a great game, but now I've seen much better games, they can't fossilize themselves on an outdated design. It's time to make Civ3 more like a simulation, then your logic will fail, because for a nation, not a player, 2000 years are a great amount of time ...
 
Herr Doktor said:
There's no logic in it, except for the "great deathmach play", but the problem is: what Civilization is? A big deatchmatch for civilizations, or a sort of simulation of reality?
For now, it is only a deatchmatch and your logic is correct but I can play 2 or 3 games like a deatchmatch ( in fact I did only 4-5 great games with Civ3 ) then it suddenly loose its charm.
The first Civilization I played was on Amiga 500, that was a great game, but now I've seen much better games, they can't fossilize themselves on an outdated design. It's time to make Civ3 more like a simulation, then your logic will fail, because for a nation, not a player, 2000 years are a great amount of time ...

Passion of the Christ struck a sour note after how many years? :mischief:
 
Oh well. You're right.

In that case Turkey and all Middle East nations should be stile enraged with European powers for the Crusades.
Or Greece should be enraged with latin ( in the mean of latin - around Rome - people ) establishment of the Roman empire because a lot of time ago Roman Empire acted like an imperial power that invaded with a pretext them and ended their territorial sovereignty.
And a lot of other examples that isn't necessary to say ...
 
Herr Doktor said:
Middle East nations should be stile enraged with European powers for the Crusades.

You mean they are not?
 
Let's discuss the rules that govern the civ3 AI.

1) Trading: civs negotiate for what would benefit them and their civ. If it's not worth it to them they won't trade. They always look for some benefit so if you want one tech, in later stages of the game the AI may want 2 techs for it, especially if it doesn't feel the tech is as valuable. Some things are damn near impossible to trade for, like distant remote cities on a lone island. Resources can be scarce so resource trading is a pain if you don't have your own resource to trade back.

2) War: The AI has the "appearance" of being out to screw you in war. In an ideal world, everyone gets along until the superior human stomps everyone. In Civ3, the game was designed to be be pretty evil about that, because in the real world other civs sometimes just want to screw you. You have to build up enough troops and defenses to not get screwed. That's the point of the game. If you go without building any troops, the "human" response would be "oh look at those fre cities." C'mon, you wouldn't do the same thing to the AI if it had 20 well placed and well developed cities and about 6 spearmen to your 50 tanks? Frankly, I like an aggressive civ only because that means that when a civ is aggressive, I like to play the "moral vindicator!" or "Righteous defender!" Some people are over dramatic about civ but hey it's what we do :D

3) Mood: The AI starts out with a simple neutral feeling towards you which essentially erodes over time if you don't negotiate with that AI Civ frequently. Well, as most people will say, they only want to negotiate with another AI civ when it suits them. Great, now think about you being treated that way by another human. Would you not feel bad? Of course you would! My personal complaint here (my main complaint with the AI) is that you cannot repair hurt feelings. The AI is designed to have a "ceiling" where if you've completely POed a civ, you can't get back to "polite" or "gracious" ever. You can get some brownie points, but they will stay furious forever unless you spent most of the game giving them gold, swapping maps, and in general keeping up trade.

4) Workers: the automated AI for workers is both for you and them. I needs to be customizable for the player and it needs better handling of priorities or at least customize them. If it plans on building a road on an unimproved square, and then pollution pops up next turn, it should probably build the road first and not waste the moves it took to get to the point to build the road. Right now, it moves back to a road square, taking one turn, and then goes to clean up the pollution. It's more efficient to let another worker doo the job, but the AI doesn't know how to spatially prioritize jobs for each worker and just reassigns one worker to one job at a time. I would also like an option to completely prevent my workers from crossing another civs territory to another of my cities unless I have a ROP agreement. I don't mind, however, how it works for the AI and I don't even mind the RRs everywhere phenomenon, it makes it easier to defend yourself when everything has RRs.

I think to get a successful Civ AI you have to discuss the details. Trading wouldn't be so bad if resources and advancements weren't so "scarce." Mood wouldn't be so bad if having MPPs didn't force you into war or force you to drop trading agreements rather than giving you options. Works need tweaks.

All in all, the AI in civ is good. It can be better, but it's the details that need to be better. The AI is there to make it harder for you to beat the game. While it might seem like the AI is out to screw you, it's the details that determine whether or not you feel like you were screwed, or you were given a strong challenge.
 
forwardsry for my sucky english :D

I cannt unterstand how AI work :D . :

Polite Korea(i am exporting iron they) and on start industrial age they attack, huh???!!!
Gracious Netherlands (nice trading,together fight with korea and WON, etc) in middle of industrail age(for me, he was tech forward) attack...
why i built reallationship for thousands years and they just attack no reason.....
 
Is that a troll Heav??????? Okay I'll bite.

Earlier in this post it's been explained and it's been explained in the past. I understand your english skills aren't great but that's no excuse for not searching if you understand the post well enough to know what the thread is about.

The AI weighs both military strength as well as attitude. If you have few units, the AI is going to look to you as a someone to conquer. They covet what you have. This makes perfect sense in terms of history. What people don't like about this is because in recent history, humans are all about their sovereign rights as a country to exist. This is a good social principle that's important, but even in recent history war across borders exists. I would say the closest equivalent in Civ3 to this principle are universal MPPs, though it's not a perfect match in some respects.
 
The problem is that Civ is an extremely complex game, and AI is still a misnonomer. "Artificial stupidity" would be a better name, anything from Empire Earth II to Half-Life 2 has AI that can be repeatedly tricked, outsmarted and beaten by an eleven year old who wants to spend a few days at it.
The only way you're going to get logical opponents, rational trade agreements and on-the-fly treatise is to play with other human beings who can understand language.
 
Cheimison said:
The only way you're going to get logical opponents, rational trade agreements and on-the-fly treatise is to play with other human beings who can understand language.


Probably true, but game AIs could perform a lot better than they do.

What kind of priority has Firaxis placed on improving the Civ AI? The proof of the pudding is in the eating. :cooool:


- Sirian
 
warpstorm said:
You could look at it as when I break a treaty only 100 turns ago, they treat me like I just broke it, oh wait, you did just break it...

Yes but that only seems to apply to human players, not other ai players, which is the problem. I don't have an issue with an ai holding a grudge against me for attacking it, but it should equally do so with other ai who do the same.
 
I think Civ can use a lil tweaking in its diplomacy part. Sometimes it feels like its just a coin toss.

Hanibal:"Heads or tails? Heads! now we're at war...oh yeah we are..uhu look its heads!"

Or Ghandi, sneak attacking one of my cities as we had good relationship, trade going on and even a right of passage. To top it off, ghandi and his nation is suposedly a "Lesser" agressive nation.

Its like one day they wake up and go like Napoleon:"Aaah, the sun is shining, the birds are singing. Lets go to war with someone random person. Josephine! Get my dartboard and leader faces!...hmmm, Persia. Those guys got nukes, battleships, spaceflight. We got swordsman...o well the dartboard is always right"
 
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