Diplomacy=********?

[CoolLizy]

Originally posted by Mike C


Trust me, it is way beyond just maps. I have had so many "unfair" proposals that I finally stopped bothering with trade.

I mean, they want Republic, Mathematics, AND Literacy for Mysticism?! Get lost...

Are they bigger than you? They're more likely to listen to you and take you seriously if you have a few soilders just outside their borders.
Also, certian leader are more unfair than others. And if you impress a leader very much, he'll be very likely to give you what you want.

 

[Travisw111]

Hey I was just using an example! World map or not, they still rip me off every chance they get even if I have a better army and am more technically advanced. Get this, that country with the one city left that I wanted to trade for actually threatened me today. LOL. They wanted democracy or else they would slaughter me with their 6 outdated units. Come on AI, at least think out what you are doing.

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by Travisw111
[Get this, that country with the one city left that I wanted to trade for actually threatened me today. LOL. They wanted democracy or else they would slaughter me with their 6 outdated units. Come on AI, at least think out what you are doing. [/B]

This is what is known in diplomacy circles as:
"Complete bluff to save your ass!"

Kill them.

 

[Mike C]

Is there the pact of subjucation like in AC, where if you reduce a faction bad enough during a war, they will sign a peace treaty and become essentially a vassal to you?

 

[Ilspana]

I've found in this game that some civs are much less reasonable in their initial demans than others, and that their opinionn of you affects how little they're willing to take from you in exchange for something.

People are always trying to pull the wool over each others eyes in diplomatic negotiations in real life. I think the fact that some civs try to throw a tech in with a world map deal is an example of this.

Also, you people should try the counter offer once in a while. You could give them gold or something else in exchage their map (if you really want the map you will pay extra for it.). There were also times in negotiations that i offered to exchange maps with no extras. The more reasonable civs that i had good relations with usually went for the trade.

Overall, i'm kind of surprised by some of the ai's demands, which is contradictory to what i was expecting before the game came out.

Overall, i'm happy with the game, but its not quite as good as i thought it would be. Also, it is much harder! which is a good thing

 

[Makten]

Originally posted by CoolLizy


Are they bigger than you? They're more likely to listen to you and take you seriously if you have a few soilders just outside their borders.
Also, certian leader are more unfair than others. And if you impress a leader very much, he'll be very likely to give you what you want.

I think your might, culture and aggresion has a lot to do with how the other civs trade with you. I noticed that when you initiate the trade they do want a lot, but when they come to you, I tend to up the ante and they sometimes bite. Just yesterday I was playing and when I had a bunch of troops right outside the German city, they approached me and offered me some cash for a peace treaty, of course I denied and took their city

 

[Grendel]

I think the key is who initiates the deal, or at least what position each person is bargaining from.

On my current game (Regent level) I'm in the process of beating down the Indian empire. I tried to initiate a peace treaty (with no extras thrown in), but my advisor said it would be insulting , so I backed off. A few turns later, with nothing really significant changing, the Indians approached me and asked for a peace treaty, and I managed to get 3 techs (really significant ones, too) with the deal. Something similar to this has happened multiple times.

It seems the AI is insanely unfair whenever you come asking for something. But if they ask you for something, they expect the same kind of unfair treatment, so you can get away with murder.

Though the whole thing reeks of Civ 1, where opposing civs would demand 1000's of gold (even though you had <100) to refrain from attacking you...

One good thing about the AI's love affair with cities on the bargaining table is that you can trade one of your cities for a helluva lot of goodies. In a recent game I gained this pathetic size-1 city (through cultural expansion) the AI had built in the middle of a desert. First chance I got, I traded it to another civ for 3 techs, gold, and their map! And of course, it's only a matter of time before I get the stupid thing back through cultural expansion again...

 

[brandon749]

Originally posted by Mozenwrath
I would say the cities for peace thing sounds more realistic. I can't think of one occasion in history when a nation has bought a city from another nation with a map and some gold, can you?

Seward bought Alaska From Russia. We bought Louisiana from the French which included New Orleans. The pope granted Land and kingships for money all the time.

CIvs have also given up land for peace. (See the War of Austrian Succession where Marie Theresa gave Frederick the province of Silesia, or the treaty of Versailles, the Spanish American War, the Mexican American War, the French and Indian War etc.

But you're right, there hasn't been that much land and cities for gold in recent history.

 

[Jezner]

Travisw111 - if they are offering really ridiculous trade prices, try crushing them into dust. You'll find you'll the resources at a significant reduction.

 

[Glide]

I noticed that your military size compared to the other civs also equals out the diplomacy. The only thing that gets irritating is the mutal protection treaties. Not the ones that you as the player make but the ones the computer makes. Im in this game now where I successfully achieved a large military campaign in ancient times and had breezed thru to industrialization without further conflicts. Suddenly when one civ declares war on me, so does everyone else because of these numerous mutual protection treaties.

Example: India attacks me and I fight back. Because I fought back and india has a mutual protecion treaty with the aztecs, they declare war on me. Well now the romans declare war on me because they have a MP treaty with the aztecs. So despite the fact that the romans and indians are at war and that I had good relations with the romans, now they are allied against me. This was a domino affect until I was fighting alone. It was wierd and alittle annoying but other than that, I havent had a problem with diplomacy.

 

[bulletsponge]

Ya'll need to hear this...Some other Civs initiated the negotiation, and wanted my world map + a tech for their world map...i said, Screw that, I counter-offered a straight up world map for world map, they were insulted...HA...so I then started to think....I cleared the table, put what i wanted from them on the table(world map), I then noticed a new option appeared below saying "what do you want for this"...wow...never noticed this before, I pushed it and they poped up world map...viola!!...I got a straight up deal, world map for world map even after they were insulted by the same deal...hehe...

 

[Travisw111]

Yah its weird but I've been playing and I just got in contact with the English and they are the only civ out of the other 7 I have contact with that actually trade fairly. WTH? Their
army is a lot bigger than mine, they are my scientific equals, and we are not even close to each other at all, but they give me totally fair trades. We traded world maps straight across, even though my world map was totally unfinished compared to theirs. We traded techs and even luxuries straight across too.

Is there something I'm missing? Do some Civs start out with different agendas and agression towards diplomacy? I don't think the english was even impressed with my civ, but they are the only civ in my game that are actually intelligent and fair when it comes to diplomacy. I live on the same continent as the Zulu, I have twice the army they have and they admire my civ, but yet they just rip me off in any deal, no matter if I initiate it or them. Hmmm

 

[Typo]

One thing people haven't really talked about is relationships with the AI. Have you formed any mutual protection pacts or Alliances and does this make trade more favourable??

I mean one guy just moaned that all the other civs ended up declaring war on him because of mutual protection pacts with each other. I mean where were his allies??

 

[KnightOwl]

Don't get me started on what the computer wants for a Mutual Defense Treaty...

 

[Napoleon Hitler]

Go to your diplomatic advisor screen and activate the window to show everyone that you have peace with.

Then chat with everyone that you have peace with and throw your world map on the table. Ask them, "What are you willing to give us for our world map?" On chieftan level at least, they usually offer their world map and some gold.

 

[Napoleon Hitler]

Originally posted by bulletsponge
Ya'll need to hear this...Some other Civs initiated the negotiation, and wanted my world map + a tech for their world map...i said, Screw that, I counter-offered a straight up world map for world map, they were insulted...HA...so I then started to think....I cleared the table, put what i wanted from them on the table(world map), I then noticed a new option appeared below saying "what do you want for this"...wow...never noticed this before, I pushed it and they poped up world map...viola!!...I got a straight up deal, world map for world map even after they were insulted by the same deal...hehe...

Whoops! Didn't see that when I made my post.

But he's right, unless you make the offer, you won't ever get a fair deal.

 

[Squirrel]

Well, I have to admit that in a game that I'm plaing now (Warlord), I am well ahead in tech, my culture is such that other cities are flocking to my flag, I have a great set of wonders, and tons of gold.

Yet, I can't get a one-to-one trade. I tried trading furs for spices, and you would think I asked the Aztecs to all fall on their swords. They wanted a tech, 300 gold and the spice for their lousy furs. Hey, not that big a deal to have a bearskin rug or something.

I think the AI is just being rational in this deal. Both furs and spices are luxuries, right? Well, from what you say I assume that you are bigger than the Aztecs. Meaning that you have more and bigger cities.
What do luxuries do? They prevent disorder. Disorder is more likely to occur in a big city than in a small one, meaning that you (if your cities indeed are bigger) have more trouble with disorder. Therefore the luxuries are more important, and thus worth more, to you than to the Aztecs... The Aztecs know this, and do the rational thing to demand a high price for the fur.
Also, the fur, if you buy it, will be distributed to all your cities. Hence, if you have more cities than the Aztecs, you will have more cities benefiting from the traded luxury good.

Hope I did not make too many mistakes. I have not played the game yet...

Edit: Spelling

 

[Glide]

Originally posted by Typo
...I mean one guy just moaned that all the other civs ended up declaring war on him because of mutual protection pacts with each other. I mean where were his allies??

The problem is the only way to have an alliance is one of a war nature. You either
1)ally with another civ - military alliance, declaring war against another nation.
2)You form a peace treaty - which you can apparently only do to end a war, not prevent one.
3)You form a mutual protection treaty which will definately throw you into war.

In the situation I mentioned above, I had very good relations with the romans. I had a lot of trade with them and I supported them by conducting trade embargos against thier enemies. Basically everything short of military protection but as soon as the mutual chain effect starts, they become a hated enemy. Just seems wierd that that would happen. I wasnt looking to avoid war completely, but it just seems that avoiding a world war (atleast later in the game when most civs have contact with each other) is impossible. A peace time alliance could have been nice or even allowing countries to make peace treaties preventing wars for as long as they last (20years is the norm I think).

 

[Vault Dweller]

I think some of you need to think before you start complaining. There are many things to consider.

1. Size, power, and culture do you think that someone more powerful, or culturally advanced is going to pull a fair deal with a backwater burg? OF COURSE they are gonna try to cheat you! Don't you rember what happened when the europeans came to america? They gave the natives a few worthless beads and got valuble furs in exchange.

2. Diplomatic Stance - if they dont like you they aren't gonna give good deals you know.

3. Worth of Trade item - I hope you know that all tech not equal. some tech is faster to aquire even when you are able to reasearch it at the same time. They aren't gonna give you that tech they spent 24 turns reasearching for the one you spent 9 on. Also have you thought that maybe you only had a little knowledge of the map when they have discovered a huge ammount of it? Also you think iron and incense has the same value? Think about it.

4. Renegociate - saying no to a given proposal lets you give and take what you want, usually finding out if they were trying to cheat you or not.

Think about it guys I think you'll find that the diplomacy is rather good. It's fun since you bluff, and cheat and at the same time try and figure out if they are doing it to you.

 

[CoolLizy]

Originally posted by Vault Dweller
I think some of you need to think before you start complaining. There are many things to consider.

1. Size, power, and culture do you think that someone more powerful, or culturally advanced is going to pull a fair deal with a backwater burg? OF COURSE they are gonna try to cheat you! Don't you rember what happened when the europeans came to america? They gave the natives a few worthless beads and got valuble furs in exchange.

2. Diplomatic Stance - if they dont like you they aren't gonna give good deals you know.

3. Worth of Trade item - I hope you know that all tech not equal. some tech is faster to aquire even when you are able to reasearch it at the same time. They aren't gonna give you that tech they spent 24 turns reasearching for the one you spent 9 on. Also have you thought that maybe you only had a little knowledge of the map when they have discovered a huge ammount of it? Also you think iron and incense has the same value? Think about it.

4. Renegociate - saying no to a given proposal lets you give and take what you want, usually finding out if they were trying to cheat you or not.

Think about it guys I think you'll find that the diplomacy is rather good. It's fun since you bluff, and cheat and at the same time try and figure out if they are doing it to you.

Right on! Remember, the computer's going to try to cheat you. You just have to learn to play the same game.