diplomatic victory

[Thibix Magnus]

Diplomatic victory is the one I struggle most, I'd love some advice (immortal+).

Everyone is constantly at war with me or brokering some, and I feel I just don't understand diplomatic penalties. I understand when you are close to winning, but I start gathering hatred shortly after founding WC, having a less than a third of the votes, clinging to three CS alliances, and being about the last in overall scoring. I feel I can take bigger science or tourism leads that wouldn't cause the same backlash. Passing quickly peace accords doesn't change anything, I'm in constant war, or defiance. I can easily defend, but no way to negotiate votes, no brokering wars, no DoF ever, and losing far away CS allies that you can't defend.

Is a mostly peaceful diplo win even a thing in higher difficulties? It looks a much easier path would be a heavily militarized diplo win, having a huge army solely to defend your CS allies around the world. But when I'm in the mood for constant war, I'm very tempted to conquer some, if only to justify the cost of an army.

So, how to not anger everyone? Is there a somehow peaceful way, with actual negotiation, or did I take too literally the "diplomatic" part of diplomatic victory?

 

[Stalker0]

Well it sounds like your really asking two questions: How to stay peaceful with everyone....and how to do a peaceful diplomatic victory. I'll answer the second one.

• Focus on Embassies early

Embassies are actually worth 2 votes for many WC proposals (1 for you, and 1 votes denied to an enemy voting against you). So get your schriver's office up early and start working the civil servant. Roman Forum is also nice but not necessary in my opinion. Never use your GDs for influence until all embassies are taken, and take embassies closer rather than farther away (easier to defend CSes).

• Work quests and emissaries when you can.

Make sure your constantly checking your quests to pick up influence (the bonuses are nice too). And then try to get emissaries flowing. They are actually pretty for the amount of influence they generate. Our goal is to get an early jump on WC votes when it first comes out.

• Spies focus on CS elections.

Send your first spy to a CS election to level up, and then send him for spying. All other spies go to rig elections. Focus on CS that have no influence first for the biggest gain, and then once those are gone, focus on your non-sphere allies that you want to maintain longer. Once spying dries up, sending them back for rigging. By the late game all of my spies are rigging, except maybe one for counterintelligence.

• Mid to Late Game: All about spheres of influence.

The reality is, on Immortal you just can't hold on to your allies against the infinite wave of diplomats and GD they will use to tear you down. So don't try. The boring part about DV...your not actually going to use the WC most of the time, you are going to propose sphere after sphere after sphere. Your early vote investment should help you here. As you start to secure spheres, even if they erode some of your CS allies you will still have a solid pool of votes to work with. This will also help you when someone inevitably tries to decolonize you (ideally you negate the vote, but if you have enough spheres it might not even affect you that much).

I also focus on my nearest CSes first. This may seem counterintuitive, as normally you have secure a lot of influence with them. However, I can't tell you how many times the AI was flipped my nearest CS and warred with me, putting me in an awkward situation. Having your neighbors guaranteed loyalty is very useful.

• Statecraft, Palace of Westminster, Freedom's Treat Organization

These are the pillars of free votes, so make these a priority. They can make up for a lot of CS allies with these alone.

• Globalization is your last hail mary

If your still struggling to hit your needed votes, your last hail mary is Globalization. Just make sure to send your spies early enough to make them diplomats before the next vote....it can take longer than you might suspect if your not familiar with the timing. That will get you a pretty large influx of votes, which can put you over the top.

• A quick boost with a little war: Resurrecting a dead civ.

If you are willing to do a little waring for a big gain, try to eliminate a dead civ if there is one. They will become your vassal....which is worth minimum 4 votes on a normal map to your hegemony vote.


So those are the tricks, beyond that as you said its defending your CS allies. On this you have to do what you can, if the CS is far away (and coastal or island), there is probably not much you can do...CS defenses are paper thin in the current version. Your nearer CS (where you have been putting your embassies) you of course need to defend. However, the free votes I mentioned above can compensate for the loss of several CS allies

 

[Cokolwiek]

Basically peaceful diplomatic would be extremely hard. Especially because AI is programmed to block any UN proposals, to war you when you are close for the victory. Many city-states inevitably fall in the course of wars. You don't have any other option than war them and take and secure that city-state. Which means a warpath, massive armies, massive conquests. It would be dumb AI which let's you take control over the world with no effort, just sendings your envoys.
Some conquests would be great, because autocracy gives you two delegates for every foreign capital you control.
Also you might need to eliminate completely some AI in order to bring total against tally lower than what delegates you have. If you will encounterAustria, you will just have to eliminate her, period. Diplomatic marriages are non-eraseable in any other way.
Your vassals are not going to vote for UN and for you as a global leader in any situation, so stay clear of world ideology. It will go you two votes for UN, and six or eight against you from any other civilziations.

Massive for any peaceful diplomatic attempt would be reformation belief that gives you one delegate for any two holy sites and landmarks. I would try it only as wide progress or autocracy, cause you need enough production and gold to get everything rolling and win influence battle.

 

[Stalker0]

Your vassals are not going to vote for UN and for you as a global leader in any situation, so stay clear of world ideology.

To clarify, while they likely won't vote for UN, they have to vote for you in the Global Hegemony vote.

So one trick about world ideology...it doesn't have to be yours. So if you feel its too contentious, propose your big enemies ideology instead....which they will be more agreeable to vote for.

 

[crdvis16]

I don't think peaceful diplo wins are all that difficult. CSs being conquered isn't that big of a deal typically as every time a CS dies the required votes for world hegemony lowers. Losing a CS is only really very harmful if it's one you spent a GD making an Embassy in. For that reason it's best to build embassies in nearby CSs that you feel confident you can defend. Civs like Austria and Germany make it very easy to have the votes to dominate the WC. If Austria or Germany are in your game it's still not the end of the world- they will propose and vote for the UN and World Ideology and help them pass. You just need to be able to out vote then in World Hegemony.

The best thing about diplo victories is that you can be behind in science and still win.

 

[Thibix Magnus]

Well it sounds like your really asking two questions: How to stay peaceful with everyone....and how to do a peaceful diplomatic victory. I'll answer the second one.

So those are the tricks, beyond that as you said its defending your CS allies. On this you have to do what you can, if the CS is far away (and coastal or island), there is probably not much you can do...CS defenses are paper thin in the current version. Your nearer CS (where you have been putting your embassies) you of course need to defend. However, the free votes I mentioned above can compensate for the loss of several CS allies

thanks for the detailed answer! indeed these were two questions in one, but I felt they are a bit related... I feel I'm comfortable with the first steps, converting early embassies into spheres of influence, I really have no trouble grabbing CS alliances, but I end up at war with everyone very early and just losing them, not being able to liberate them by force against the entire world. With 2 ally CS, statecraft, westminster, Venice's rialto, I'm stuck at around 20 delegates over 70, no way to pass UN. It seems going wide is necessary for diplomatic victory? More adjacent CS, easier to defend them?

It would be dumb AI which let's you take control over the world with no effort, just sendings your envoys.

yeah I expect AI to fight back when I'm winning, my issue is being everyone's target when being last on scoring and having less than a third of the votes. Not an issue of being defenceless and attracting appetites, only wars to stop my victory when I'm in no sight of it. My main impression is that you make enemies much earlier in the diplomatic path than in science or culture.

I guess I have to settle for diplo victory being a soft version of domination, but in that case maybe there is wasted potential about "peaceful" (as peaceful as scientific or cultural can be) diplo victory making friends and negociating votes. It would be far from trivial, as the resources you give to possible friends help them too. Changing the AI mind on resolutions shouldn't be always impossible, only very expensive.

 

[Cokolwiek]

My main impression is that you make enemies much earlier in the diplomatic path than in science or culture.

You may be correct to some degree and I had similar experiences. However culture, due to wonders penalty, and domination can also lead you to being universally hated by renaissance, bar one trusted ally who is also hated usually. The difference being culture don't have enough production, cities, units, territory, gold to don't care. Domination by that point should be at least partially immune to diplomacy. The most dangerous situations I always had were with three-cities tradition and nonstops wars with all AI.
And diplomacy hatred is usually connected with very tangible thing you have to strategize around properly: penalty for city-state competition.

The best thing about diplo victories is that you can be behind in science and still win.

I have usually a lead in science from some point on anyway, due to my large empires, but I would agree that science lead is not so much important as with culture to unlock wonders first, or with plain domination to unlock units.

CSs being conquered isn't that big of a deal typically

Civs like Austria and Germany make it very easy to have the votes to dominate the WC.

That is not my exprience on deity. I sometimes am unable to grab all crucial wonders. I never had any AI voting for UN. I am usually the host, first in score, sometimes killed off civs or have multiple vassals, with the largest pool of delegates. Yet I rarely hold more than 1/4 of all delegates by atomic. Even if Austria is in the game, she knows what that means and don't vote. Germany really have like +1 or +2 votes, in the most optimal situation +3, so it is not that of an advantage. Austria is far more dangerous, she habitually gathers around 30 votes herself by modern.

I guess I have to settle for diplo victory being a soft version of domination

Basically, yes in my eyes. It's just compliments everything from progress or authority wide, to statecraft which is also more beneficial to larger empires than small ones, industry or imperialism, which are of course wide stuff. Then authority is the best way. More production, more units, more gold, more resources, more influence on the world generally.
And I like it that way, diplomatic superpowers that set the global rules were always military and economic countries number #1 with military presence and active diplomacy around the world, not some small tradition-like ones. Be it ancient Rome, or modern United States and SOviet Union.
It also smoothes the game, after one last big war in atomic or information, you don't have to rush capitals through carpets of units.
You, as warmonger "civilize" to the point of projecting your power beyond blood and iron. Just with a threat of blood and iron.
I like it, it is more natural: any major country rarely was compeletely peaceful, but had episodes of being imperial power with vassals, and rarely was completely aggresive, sometimes resorting to boosting economic, scientific and demographic boom within its borders, like Europe after 1815 till 1914. I feel best when I manage to have one or two vasssals, dominate my part of the continent, not as when I was sitting naively on three cities waiting to be marginalized as a city-state, or when I conquer whole Pangea. Those seem boring and extreme.

 

[Stalker0]

I don't think peaceful diplo wins are all that difficult. CSs being conquered isn't that big of a deal typically as every time a CS dies the required votes for world hegemony lowers.

I believe the exception to this is...once the Hegemony vote is set, future CS loses do not adjust the number.

 

[Thibix Magnus]

Basically, yes in my eyes. It's just compliments everything from progress or authority wide, to statecraft which is also more beneficial to larger empires than small ones, industry or imperialism, which are of course wide stuff. Then authority is the best way. More production, more units, more gold, more resources, more influence on the world generally.
And I like it that way, diplomatic superpowers that set the global rules were always military and economic countries number #1 with military presence and active diplomacy around the world, not some small tradition-like ones. Be it ancient Rome, or modern United States and SOviet Union.
It also smoothes the game, after one last big war in atomic or information, you don't have to rush capitals through carpets of units.
You, as warmonger "civilize" to the point of projecting your power beyond blood and iron. Just with a threat of blood and iron.
I like it, it is more natural: any major country rarely was compeletely peaceful, but had episodes of being imperial power with vassals, and rarely was completely aggresive, sometimes resorting to boosting economic, scientific and demographic boom within its borders, like Europe after 1815 till 1914. I feel best when I manage to have one or two vasssals, dominate my part of the continent, not as when I was sitting naively on three cities waiting to be marginalized as a city-state, or when I conquer whole Pangea. Those seem boring and extreme.

Indeed I really like that realistic approach too, but I also like that there is room to imagine an unrealistic 3 city culture or science victory, so I wish you could role play the city state that becomes the commercial hub of the world, plays big powers one against another, buys everyone and carefully control the world from behind, leaving to others the exterior signs of power only. More like a giant corporation really. I hope current works on AI overhaul will permit that.

 

[Cokolwiek]

Indeed I really like that realistic approach too, but I also like that there is room to imagine an unrealistic 3 city culture or science victory, so I wish you could role play the city state that becomes the commercial hub of the world, plays big powers one against another, buys everyone and carefully control the world from behind, leaving to others the exterior signs of power only. More like a giant corporation really. I hope current works on AI overhaul will permit that.

I definitely understand your sentiment, and I share it. However I do not think you are thinking about diplomatic victory. You are just talking about long-awaited economic victory which we never got in Civ 5 properly, partially due to how production or gold work in the game (as a tool, not goal in itself like tourism or science). While diplomatic superpower out of three cities is hard to imagine in terms of reality, you can definitely achieve it right now in the game. Still, diplomatic victory revolves around global hegemony, so it should be more natural for massive empires with nuclear arsenal, massive economical backbone of corporations, industries, and manufacturing, abundant labor force and giant conventional armed forces, all ready to project power. Economic victory on the other hand could perfectly suit hard and rewarding job of maintaining prosperity for fragile export-oriented three city nation, which capitalizes on high-tech industries, intellectual property, location of strategic importance with access to natural harbors and trade routes, with know-how to manage larger economies that lay beyond its administrative borders. Ancient Carthage, medieval Genoa and Venice, early modern Netherlands, today's Singapore and Hong Kong come to mind.