Disable CS and huts

[Aheadatime]

Again, the upfront investment is building a scout and also using it properly. Etc..

Which has been agreed is mandatory at high-level play, thus is a false choice.

There are also tons of other micro nuances that will separate average players from good players, and from the a.i.

I already addressed this point when I said;

two players can follow the same strategy (follow flat terrain, avoid barbs, end turn adjacent to rivers) and receive different results (2 goody huts and 3 CS envoy vs 1 goody hut and 0 CS envoy)

I'll add to that by re-stating the point of this debate. My opinion is that the rewards of stumbling upon a CS first are too strong, despite my acknowledgement that there are obviously inefficient ways to scout.

You building a settler to settle that city 8 tiles north and being beaten to it is no more random than you starting scout first and taking 4 steps to the south to discover a city state.

Well, technically it's less random, as there's available action. I could have parked a unit on the hill I wanted to settle to ensure that I get that spot. With scouting into the fog, however, there's nothing you can do to change what the fog will reveal.

Let's simplify this debate, as it feels like it's going in circles and losing its clarity. My argument is that meeting a CS first and being rewarded with a free envoy is too powerful. Agree or disagree? If agree, then;

My solution would be to either change the first-to-meet bonus to something more temporary, or take some power away from tier 1 envoys and shift it to the later tiers of envoys. Agree or disagree?

 

[Khalid]

Let's simplify this debate, as it feels like it's going in circles and losing its clarity. My argument is that meeting a CS first and being rewarded with a free envoy is too powerful. Agree or disagree? If agree, then;

My solution would be to either change the first-to-meet bonus to something more temporary, or take some power away from tier 1 envoys and shift it to the later tiers of envoys. Agree or disagree?

I partially agree with you in that for some city states, the free envoy is too powerful, for others it is OK. I would keep the free envoy system for the first civ to meet the city state, but would decrease some of the benefits. For comparison:
commercial CS: +2 gpt, you start with +5gpt, so you get +40% boost. You can buy some tiles, or buy a unit with the extra gold after several decades of turns. This is OK
industrial/militaristic: +2 production (units or buildings). you start with 4 or 5 production in capital based on the tile worked, so the boost is 40 - 50 % and only if you build the particular type (units or buildings). Ithis is OK.
scientific CS: +2 science. you start with 2.8 science, so the boost is 71 %. This amounts to another 3 or 4 pop in the capital and you can't get that much science early anywhere else. This is too much IMHO. Would change it to +1.
cultural CS: +2 culture. you start with 1.4 culture. Boost is 143 %. Equals free monument. Seems too much as well, but not that much as science. But could be decreased to +1 probably.
religious CS: +2 faith, you start with 0, Boost high. Doesn't seem that much. It only gives you an early pantheon and than accumulates faith (no other immediate benefit) and you might catch up later. Might be decreased to +1 to be consistent with science and culture, but not big deal IMHO.

So the most important thing is the scientific and cultural bonuses, which give significant constant boost and you must spend a lot of hammers to catch up with that.

 

[Larsenex]

No, personally I play to have fun. I would not remove Goody Huts or nerf CS. I can accept Aheadatime's argument but... I enjoy the game with them, so they stay. I am not out to prove I need them to play as I could are less about playing at the higher difficulties.

Prince and King are fine.

However if you you feel they need changes or removal that is fine as you can and should be able to play the game how you want to (always).

If someone wins on the highest difficulty using both goodyhuts and CS would you claim to be the better player if you won without them?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I partially agree with you in that for some city states, the free envoy is too powerful, for others it is OK. I would keep the free envoy system for the first civ to meet the city state, but would decrease some of the benefits. For comparison:
commercial CS: +2 gpt, you start with +5gpt, so you get +40% boost. You can buy some tiles, or buy a unit with the extra gold after several decades of turns. This is OK
industrial/militaristic: +2 production (units or buildings). you start with 4 or 5 production in capital based on the tile worked, so the boost is 40 - 50 % and only if you build the particular type (units or buildings). Ithis is OK.
scientific CS: +2 science. you start with 2.8 science, so the boost is 71 %. This amounts to another 3 or 4 pop in the capital and you can't get that much science early anywhere else. This is too much IMHO. Would change it to +1.
cultural CS: +2 culture. you start with 1.4 culture. Boost is 143 %. Equals free monument. Seems too much as well, but not that much as science. But could be decreased to +1 probably.
religious CS: +2 faith, you start with 0, Boost high. Doesn't seem that much. It only gives you an early pantheon and than accumulates faith (no other immediate benefit) and you might catch up later. Might be decreased to +1 to be consistent with science and culture, but not big deal IMHO.

So the most important thing is the scientific and cultural bonuses, which give significant constant boost and you must spend a lot of hammers to catch up with that.

Actually commercial is +4 gpt...
What might be better is reducing the effect of CS level 1 in ancient era (just cut it in 1/2 for all of them)..once you hit classical you get the full effect.

(since you have to be in ancient for 100 turns before you get a normal envoy)

 

[Khalid]

Actually commercial is +4 gpt...
What might be better is reducing the effect of CS level 1 in ancient era (just cut it in 1/2 for all of them)..once you hit classical you get the full effect.

(since you have to be in ancient for 100 turns before you get a normal envoy)

My mistake with the commercial. Sounds reasonable as you buy production around 4g per production.

The half bonus in ancient era could be a solution. But for me the biggest issue is if you stumble at turn 3 at a scientific or cultural CS, this gives too much.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

1 extra for science/culture isn't that much
Its 1/2 of a monument or ~1 population (a nice boost...and possibly better than the others... But not too large compared to things like goody huts...even ignoring the relics)

 

[Soterius]

Where did you get that? It's possible they will change it but the Yogcast guys absolutely captured and razed, yes razed, a City State.

I tried finding the video but no luck so far. Could you tell us in which video you saw this happen exactly?

EDIT: Found it

 

[Aheadatime]

I partially agree with you in that for some city states, the free envoy is too powerful, for others it is OK. I would keep the free envoy system for the first civ to meet the city state, but would decrease some of the benefits.

What do you think about the idea of a one-time bonus specific to the CS? Examples;

Commercial - 50g
Industrial - One-time production boost in cap
Military - Free promotion for unit that discovered CS
Scientific - Free eureka for random tech-able tech
Cultural - Free eureka for random tech-able civic
Religious - 10 faith

 

[Khalid]

What do you think about the idea of a one-time bonus specific to the CS? Examples;

Commercial - 50g
Industrial - One-time production boost in cap
Military - Free promotion for unit that discovered CS
Scientific - Free eureka for random tech-able tech
Cultural - Free eureka for random tech-able civic
Religious - 10 faith

This looks too much as another goody hut to me. I like the first envoy bonus, just think that the science and culture is too strong, if you meet the CS very early. Otherwise I am Quite happy with it.

 

[Acken]

Instead of giving you an envoy it could give you envoy points.

 

[Moon Ambassador]

If goody huts from CiV are any indication, they will likely be similarly powerful in the newest iteration.

 

[Quoth the Raven]

Goody huts/ancient ruins reward early exploration and add a bit of randomness to the game. I always thought of people who don't like them as old and crusty die hard Civ IV players who insisted that Civ IV was the best version of Civ and that turning on goody huts and random events was heresy.

 

[pietro1990]

Goody huts/ancient ruins reward early exploration and add a bit of randomness to the game. I always thought of people who don't like them as old and crusty die hard Civ IV players who insisted that Civ IV was the best version of Civ and that turning on goody huts and random events was heresy.

Iit just makes the early game slower wich is more fun.. olso early exploration withouth goody huts is still important in civ 5 you get extra faith if you meed a religious city state important or gold... meating other civs quiqly means more trading partners more city states more early benefits.