Discussion: A long term policy for Fanatika.

[Ehecatl Atzin]

With only 2 or 3 cities in our confederation it is folly to attempt an attack on a rival we do not even know. We must first build our networks and know our rivals. Do the aztecs possess iron? if so, are they building swordsmen? As stated in the FA thread, I, as FA leader shall not condone war if we are not assured a quick and decisive victory. Please expand our borders via settlers at first, we do not possess the culture to maintain foreign cities and building temples hastely is something I do not wan´t to see happen when other priorities are at hand.
I do agree with the idea that a more agressive game plan is required, especially in this level, but we must also prepare and be strong domestically before we even attempt on taking the known world.

Ehecatl Atzin

 

[Eklektikos]

While I understand the reasoning behind the calls to increase the size of our civilisation before starting any war, I could not disagree with this idea any more strongly.

To hold off is to give the enemy time to prepare, and to increase its culture level. We have no need for more cities to support the kind of strike that I proposed last term - indeed in my own games I often mount the attack with only two cities to my name and have found the results to be highly satisfactory. I am all in favour of building a strong production base and plenty of cities, but consider it to be wiser to do this after beating down the Aztecs, as it is imperative that we take the initiative in this game and not let another civ make the first move.

 

[Grandmaster]

I believe a mixture of the two options would be in the best interest of our fair Empire. At first, we have no choice but to use military force and the gift of fierce warrior skill in our blood to beat back our enemies and expand. I stand by my original position of the Archer attack into Aztec land, followed quickly by a massive follow-on echelon of swordsman. Once we have annexed the Aztecs, we will have enough of an industrial base to increase our military power greatly. Once our army is bulked up, we can use the momentum of a victory to take an aggressive posture against America or Japan. Later in the game (preferably after conquering at least 1 of the 2 previously mentioned civs) we can use our large empire to begin building an admirable cultural nation. We must achieve a status as a world military power not to be messed with, if not the World's Only Superpower, and once this goal is accomplished, can turn what would be a large war-time industry over to building libraries, wonders, etc. I see us extending from Aztecland to the Great North Sea, from Japan to America, on the tip of a sword, and then conquering the rest of the world at the tip of a writer's pen or artist's brush. Therefore, I advocate the use of military supremacy to achieve our early goals, followed by a builder mentality once we are unconquerable.

 

[Zarn]

What units defend the Aztec Empire now (a few spearmen?), and how much could they gain in defense after we build a few cities?

 

[Grandmaster]

They could improve quite a bit actually. In the extra time it would take to build cities and improvements, they could build fair numbers of warriors and spearman, possible build walls (I think) to fortify themselves, and maybe even build a city or two we wouldn't know the location of and therefore would be unable to attack effectively. And don't give them the honor of being called an empire.....

 

[Zarn]

I wasn't being sarcastic, if you didn't know. I was seriously asking.

 

[Grandmaster]

And I was giving you a straight answer. If we give them too much time, they could increase their defenses by enough to thwart our attack if we neglect to build our military at an equal or greater pace. The best way to accomplish this is to launch a fast, high-intensity, surprise offensive befre they have a chance to prepare. This isn't going to be a crusade where we want to field a huge military against a huge military and fight to the last man, we want to make this nice and surgical. We go in, take what we want, and force them to surrender at minimal loss of life, meaning that we need to have minimal fighting.

 

[Octavian X]

However, if we are taken by suprise, an Aztec Jaguar Warrior force of 8 or more units could easily overwhelm our cities as it is! Also, we must take into consideration that the Aztecs recieved some free workers at the beginning. This certainly means they already have developed at least a meager system of roads connecting their cities. Defensives from their other cities could easily arrive quickly should our first incursion fail. We must not underestimate our enemy!

At the very least, an assult should be held off until we have a clear knowledge of Aztec territory.

 

[Eklektikos]

Admittedly this is to a great extent my own fault for posting on the subject myself, but could any further discussion on the details of invasion of the Aztecs please be posted in the early aggression proposal thread, as that subject really comes under short-term planning and I fear that it is distracting from the issue that this thread was indended to address.

 

[neutral leader]

i believe that this entire discussion is based on a flawed premise. there is no need to attck the aztecs. ever. a road via peace is the best way to ensure our dominance in that we can conquer cities culturally with no risk of retribution. attempts to engage in conflict often end in long, protracted combats that drain the treasury, slow research, sap the morale of the people, and prevent the construction of the infrastructure required for war or peace.

 

[Eklektikos]

Which entire discussion, NL? Have you read the first post in this thread? I believe you'll find I posted both a warmongering proposal and a peaceful proposal...

I also believe that your assertion that we will never need to go on the offensive militarily is based on a very flawed assumption that the "do as you would be done by" philosophy that you appear to be espousing is in any way shared by the AI at this level. We are quite obviously surrounded by rivals, given the number of civs we have personally contacted so far, and we do not appear to have a huge number of luxuries lying around in our immediate vicinity with which to buy off our militaristic and expansionist neighbours who will sooner or later come demanding tribute if we are not among the dominant military powers. Understand that if we embark upon rapid city founding without a powerful military at our disposal, we will be seen as nothing more than a tasty snack by nations like Japan and the Aztecs, who are more than prepared to declare war and hoover up our empire if the odds appear to be in their favour. Note also that the aforementioned two civs appear to be our nearest neighbours and are both religious, so will likely be difficult to culture flip.

 

[Grandmaster]

Quite true, Mr. President. I have to post my opinion this time: we CANNOT even HOPE to survive as a peaceful, weak civ wedged between the Aztecs and Japanese. Without a swift and deadly attack against the Aztec barbarians to our south we have no chance to expand in any direction except into the waiting laps of Japan or our eastern neighbors. If we can take their cities, we will have expanded quite a bit, allowing us to build faster. Also, without the Aztecs as a boundary, we have an open door to expanding into lands far south unopposed. Let us also not forget the civilian benefits of taking Aztec land: all those beautiful supplies of incense (I do believe there are some around one of there cities?) With a doubled empire and an open door to the southern lands, we will be able to stand strong in the face of the Japanese, and would be able to field a larger, more quickly produced army if they give us trouble. And unless I'm mistaken, the Aztecs would form at least a partial barrier between us and our eastern neighbors (America and England, is it?) This buffer zone would allow us to more easilly defend Fanatika Proper in the event of hostilities. Remember, once we have asserted our military supremacy we will be able to at least temporarilly kick back in our safety and concentrate on building up culture and other things. With the increased industrial base of Aztec conquests and the cities we could therefore build south of them, we could possibly even handle greater Wonder projects. It is our manifest destiny to expand at the edge of a sword (we are militaristic, are we not?) and then build up an empire worthy of praise.

 

[Octavian X]

I must reassert that before we think of military invasion of any kind, we must build cities! A swift wipe from any opponent could wipe us out quickly! I do believe in a strike against Montezuma, but we must consider some basic infrastructure first!

 

[Grandmaster]

Maybe in a later war I would say that infrastructure is necessary. However, right now I feel our best chance of not being annihilated is to capture some new territory asap. True, a sweep by Japan or another rival might be able to take our homeland, but that would happen regardless, and it'll be quicker to capture Monte's land to increase our numbers than it will be to build that number of cities on our own. And for now, I don't see infrastructure as a necessity, as it will only detract from the building of an effective military and speed an enemy invasion should one come.

 

[Myartar]

Are we German or Fanatikan? Just wondering b/c as any experenced player will tell you that you can w/ with a peaceful or defensive strategy even with a militaristic civ. Now we're Fanatikan and should determine our own culture, forget the in game bonus. Let's be our own nation and not the programed one. So those arguements that "we're militaristic" or "we're German" carry no weight w/ me. We're not German, German's are like an honest senator to me, they don't exist. I'm not even an RP'er and I'm saying this.
THAT ALL SAID, I think we should build a few more cities and wipe out the Aztecs. After we do that, we'll have a good amount territory to sustain us so we can fall back and go defensive. We can consider the Aztecs lives the price of peace.

 

[Shaitan]

Heck no, we're not going to ignore the military trait bonuses. We are using Germany as our base civ because of the traits. Fanatikans are militartistic and scientific.

 

[Grandmaster]

True that, Shaitan. And Myartar, I wouldn't suggest wiping the Aztecs out. If we let them live, but extremely cripple them, they'll pose no threat but we'll still be able to extort gold and techs for a longer period of time.

 

[neutral leader]

eklektikos, you did present two options, i simply observed that the wind is obviously blowing in only one direction.

trader/warrior, i resent that. havent you read my signature?

to all concerned, certainly we need to defend ourselves. i am not blind nor am i naive. i simply think it shoud be the fsdf (fantikan self-defense force), not the fwwkyaf (fantikan we-will-kick-your-ass force) that so many people seem to be espousing.

 

[Shaitan]

FWWKYAF. I like it. How would that be pronounced? Fwikyaf?

 

[Lecky]

I don't really think there is too much of an issue for us to discuss here. Let's examine some of our basic operating conditions: we are a civ with militaristic advantages, playing at Emperor level and bordered by the Aztecs and Japanese.

Hmm - IMHO if we don't do it to them then sure as hell they'll do it to us