Discussion on Law 1: Regulations relating to laws

[Noldodan]

I prefer option 2 to either of the other options.

 

[Sir Donald III]

Guys, let's decide on this soon. One of my ideas about balancing Elections with WotP, (in fact, the one the President finds "interesting",) I have based on the requirements here that we have not yet set.

How about we make a poll about it?

Actually, I'm not quite kidding this time.

Personally, I'm leaning towards 1/3rd Quarum, 60% approval, but would be okay with 50 / 51.

 

[Cyc]

This poll is created to determine whether or not we will establish the first Law in our Code of Laws (CoL). Basically, this law states the method used in approving any Amendments to the Code of Laws. The term Amendments would apply to the inital forming of the CoL, as well as to any changes to the document after that. The poll may not make a lot of difference in the game for some people, but it is important, so please vote.

The format of this poll is one of a public YES/NO/ABSTAIN format. The poll question asks whether you approve of the legislation posted below to be admitted to the Code of Laws.

YES ~ You approve of the legislation posted below.

NO ~ You reject the legislation posted below.

ABSTAIN ~ You have no opinion.

CoL I. Code of Laws Amendments

1. Altering the Code of Laws requires the proposed change to be presented in a
   discussion thread. When discussion dies down, a proposed poll must be posted 
   at the bottom of the discussion thread and remain there for at least 24 
   hours for review.  During this period, some form of a "Second" and a "Third" 
   must be obtained from at least two citizens other than the bill's author. 
   During this period of review, if any changes are made, the 24 hour review
   period starts over at that time and all "Seconds" and "Thirds" are lost.

2. Once the review period ends, and a "Second" and a "Third" obtained, the
   author of the proposed change may request a Judicial Review, by posting 
   in the Judicial thread. Having passed Judicial Review, the proposed poll
   may be posted in the Poll sub-subforum. The poll must remain open for 72 
   hours.

3. A quorum of 37% of the active census is required for the poll results to be 
   valid. 55% (dropping fractions) of those voting must approve of the proposed 
   change for it to be admitted to the Code of Laws.

For matters of clarification, there must be, using the figures posted above, 21 people voting in this poll in order for it to be valid. At least 11 of those votes must be a YES votes in order for the legislation to be approved. If the vote count goes beyond 21, then the 55% rule will remain in effect.

Forum discussion can be found here. <----link

This poll will remain open for 3 days (72 hours)

 

[Cyc]

The above poll shows legislation that has been changed to show a compromise of the percentages required for a valid poll and approval rating. I talso shows other small changes suggested. If we can agree on this compromise, we can move forward with this poll. If no compromise can be reached, then a polling of percentage options will be needed. I have posted a possible percentage poll below:

This poll is created to determine whether or not we will establish the first Law
 in our Code of Laws (CoL). Basically, this law states the method used in
 approving any Amendments to the Code of Laws. The term Amendments would apply 
 to the inital forming of the CoL, as well as to any changes to the document
 after that. The poll may not make a lot of difference in the game for some 
 people, but it is important, so please vote. This poll will decide what 
 parameters we set for proponents of the Law.

The options for this poll will help us determine what kind of quorum and/or 
approval rating we need to pass these Amendments. They are as follows:

1. Using a low, standing approval rate for all Amendment polls that will have no
   quorum (quorum meaning a certain amount of people voting in order for the
   poll to be valid).

2. A medium quorum (50% of the active citizen must vote to make the poll valid)
   and a simple majority (more than half the votes must be YES votes).

3. A low quorum (25% of the active citizenry must vote in order for the poll to 
   be valid) and a high approval rate (67% of the votes must be YES votes).

 

[Sir Donald III]

If no compromise can be reached, then a polling of percentage options will be needed. I have posted a possible percentage poll below:

Er... um... Your Honor... ther is no "Possible Poll" in that post.

And would it not have to be 2 "Possible Polls," 1 for Quarum and 1 for Passage, or do you think (as do I) that there is enough general agreement that Higher Quarum = lower Passage and vice versa?

 

[Cyc]

It takes me a while to put these things together, SD3.

 

[Cyc]

Ok, as we've had no dissent or approval of this proposed poll, I'm assuming that everyone is happy with it, but no one wants to be the first to say anything. I need a couple of AYEs or NAYs here people. I'd like to post the poll tonight.

SD3, in regards to the polls you speak of, we would need just 1 poll. If you split the options into several polls, the winner of each poll may make for a terrible final product.

 

[Sir Donald III]

Part of me says that if people don't come here to discuss the individual parameters of the law, it's their loss. Another part of me understands that, if we do choose 1 here and the bill fails, that would have wasted 24 more hours than if we go ahead with this poll.

I would like to add a "Compromise" 33% Quarum, 60% Affirmation excluding Abstantions, but fear that I would "split the vote". Unless we make the contingency (up front) that the results be converted to a spectrum and the Median option becomes put in the law. (In this case, my compromise would be put between Options 2 and 3).

 

[Cyc]

So, in other words you're not happy with the proposed poll as it stands. That's a nay. Are you saying that you would put in your "compromise" and then be in favor of the bill? Please clue me in. Also...

I would like to add a "Compromise" 33% Quarum, 60% Affirmation excluding Abstantions, but fear that I would "split the vote". Unless we make the contingency (up front) that the results be converted to a spectrum and the Median option becomes put in the law. (In this case, my compromise would be put between Options 2 and 3).

Can you put this in English? I left my slide rule in the spaceship....

 

[Sir Donald III]

The options presented to me represent a spectrum:

Option 1: A Yeah Quarum must be met (ala 17 or 20% Yeah)
Option 2: 50% Quarum, 50%+1 Yeah (25% Quarum Yeah)
Your suggestion: 37% Quarum, 55% Yeah (20% Quarum Yeah)
My Compromise: 33% Quarum, 60% Yeah (20% Quarum Yeah)
Option 3: 25% Quarum, 67% Yeah (17% Quarum Yeah)

Okay, so it's only a spectrum if you don't use multiplication. I guess it's a spectrum in that Option 1 gives all weight to Quota, Option 3 gives the most weight to Yea/Nay, and the others are somewhere inbetween.

But I just talked myself out of the spectrum business on that one, since Option 1 seems to violate my own spectrum argument when I multiply Quarum with the amount of Yeahs necessary.



And I'd like to have my compromise in there, but not if it means that Option 1 (the Yeah Quarum Only) would win the Poll. I am personally lerry of just letting a "Group of 12" run roughshod over everyone or having 3 "Groups of 12" fight in the House every 3 Days.

 

[Cyc]

Well, if we ran the percentage poll, my compromise of 37%/55% would not be in the options as people are not responding to those numbers in the proposed poll, I can add your numbers, no problem. But I can't make any gaurantees about not splitting the votes further or pushing the 1st option to the top.

Can I get some other responses here?

 

[DaveShack]

I second the proposed poll posted by Cyc using 37% quorum and 55% approval required for passage. Hadn't had time to look before now...

 

[ravensfire]

For the CoL, I would like to see a 33% quorum, and approval getting greater than 50% of the total votes.
-- Quorom is low to negate null vote strategy, pushing citizens to vote. Approval level is fairly high, setting a moderate difficulty level. I include abstain votes because the citizen did not show support for the proposal. This, I think, is the criteria - can a proposal gain support from at least half of the citizens voting.

For the CoS, assuming we create that beast again, no quorum, approval more than disapproval. These are low-level laws, usually procedural. Thresholds are low, as these are intended to be changed easily.

For both, minimum time of 4 days.

EDIT: changed "50% of total votes" to "greater than 50% of total votes". Fingers faster then mind some weeks ...

-- Ravensfire

 

[Black_Hole]

For the CoL, I would like to see a 33% quorum, and approval getting 50% of total votes.
-- Quorom is low to negate null vote strategy, pushing citizens to vote. Approval level is fairly high, setting a moderate difficulty level. I include abstain votes because the citizen did not show support for the proposal. This, I think, is the criteria - can a proposal gain support from at least half of the citizens voting.

For the CoS, assuming we create that beast again, no quorum, approval more than disapproval. These are low-level laws, usually procedural. Thresholds are low, as these are intended to be changed easily.

-- Ravensfire

For both, minimum time of 4 days.

i am against having 50% as the number of yes votes needed, at least 51%
cyc's idea looks good

 

[ravensfire]

i am against having 50% as the number of yes votes needed, at least 51%

You are correct, it should have been "greater than 50% of the total votes", editing the post now. And then - off to save the world! City of Heroes is such a cool game!

-- Ravensfire

 

[Sir Donald III]

Hm... 50% Yeas including abstentions would probably be close to 60% Yeas excluding abstentions (*glances at Mr. Civil Rights from 'Gateway to the West'*)

Then again, if you want to count abstentions against the Proposal, then leave that option off and say "Approve" vs "Do Not Approve". Note that I did not say "Disapprove." That implies a full fledged Nay while DNA might merely mean that people have reservations or that all of their questions were not answered.

The only possible concern (not necessarily a full-fledged problem) is that counting abstentions as nays here differs from the pattern set by the Most Stringent method, Ammending the Constitution. If we wish to count Abstentions against a prospective Law, we should also count it against a prospective Article or Ammendment thereof.

 

[KCCrusader]

as stated before, as long a majority of voters that vote approve the bill I'm happy with or without the quorum ideas or even if the number of yesses is greater that 50%. Jsut reaffirming my position

 

[Cyc]

I second the proposed poll posted by Cyc using 37% quorum and 55% approval required for passage. Hadn't had time to look before now...

cyc's idea looks good

Well, it looks like the two approvals came in. The second by DaveShack and the third by Black Hole will send this proposal to the polls in about a half an hour.

 

[Cyc]

The Proposed Poll in post #43 has been presented to the Court for Judicial Review and posted as as poll simultaneously.

This poll will be open 3 days. Please vote now.