Do you ever struggle with Suzerain?

[stinkubus]

I disagree, fights over city states are often fierce in my games, even more so with the "good" ones (Yerevan, Kandy, Stockholm, Hattusa, Morenjo-what's-its-name, etc.). I can normally hold the industrial ones, because they tend to be my priority, and AI seems to underprioritize those, but among the rest, it can be a toss between location, luck and who's in the game.

Since ICS is optimal anyhow one tactic I use if I find a good city state early (like Stockholm or Carthage) is to surround it with my own cities. After I eliminate the nearest neighbors other civs won't even be able to meet them much less compete for suzerain.

 

[Disgustipated]

My last game I managed to get suzerain of 2 city-states, that's about my average. I usually aim to have between 9 and 12 city states in my games. It's a fairly good number. Hong Kong and Buenos Aires were my 2, like an above post mentioned, it seems a little easier getting the industrial ones.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

+2 per turn is just rubbish. That's a lot of turns for a single envoy but the double envoy card you can get 3 or more extra in a single turn. The AI civs use it all the time.
Gunboat diplomacy at +4 is not much better, I'll use it if I need to open borders.

+2 is in fact used most of the times, since you only need the double card the turn you send those envoys.

Anyway I always go for Autocracy since I don't want to use a rubbish most of the time...

 

[stinkubus]

Yeah, Autocracy is easily the best of the T1 governments. The extra yields are nice, and the bonus to wonders usually helps with the Colosseum.

 

[Guandao]

Yeah, Autocracy is easily the best of the T1 governments. The extra yields are nice, and the bonus to wonders usually helps with the Colosseum.

I barely use Autocracy, because it has no Diplo card slot. Is it really the best early government?

 

[liv]

I think I was 6 out of 9 in my last game around turn 200 standard speed. I may have been lucky to have many on my continent and I cleared it for AI but I am pretty sure I am suz of quite a few in all my games if they last beyond turn 200. I do not see the AI drop that many envoys in late game. I am thinking AI may not use the gundiplomacy card?

Game 2: turn 211, suzerain of 6 out of 10 city states. One of them because I liberated it on a separate continent. At this point there are 4 AI left in the game. 2 of them on on my continent where I control 5 out of the 6 city states now.

Game 3: turn 194: suzerain of 7 out of 10
All seven on my continent that I share with 2 other civs. No war
Played China so built the Apadana and two other wonders in the capital.

game 4: 6 out of 9 turn 300. Overall I was off to a horrible start and all AI were ahead me for most of the game . I think I had only one city state ally by 200 but as soon as I turned it around it became rather easy to pick them up. I liberated one only.

game 5: turn 215 I control 5 out of 9. All on my continent. Pericles is on the other continent and control all there. For some reason he has placed 23 envoys into Zanzibar. China as the next one has 12 in that city state

 

[stinkubus]

I barely use Autocracy, because it has no Diplo card slot. Is it really the best early government?

Yes. On Emperor and above most of the city states are wiped out early, so there may not be anyone for you to use the envoy bonus. Also the extra yields are huge (especially culture, but sometimes science and faith too, depending on how the game breaks) especially if you can unlock Political Philosophy relatively early. If you really, really want a diplo card you can use the wild card spot, but try some games without one and you'll probably like it.

Autocracy also lets me us the following mix of policies:

Military - Conscription, Agoge or Maneuver
Economic - Urban Planning, Colonization

You can then expand like mad while also building a huge army. No other government allows this policy mix unless you are Germany or Greece.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

I barely use Autocracy, because it has no Diplo card slot. Is it really the best early government?

The main reason of it being very good is because it does not provide a useless Diplo slot, but use a more useful military slot to substitute it.

 

[Archon_Wing]

It is not that autocracy is good but rather the others are bad or at least very situational.

 

[Disgustipated]

I just realized I have yet to use Autocracy. The only government I haven't used. I actually prefer the war one that increases unit strength and promotions, as I'm usually warmongering during this time period. Though I hardly use fascism either, but I have used it at least once. I really can't see myself using Autocracy. Perhaps on a peaceful game, but then I'd just merchant republic instead.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Well, finally got a game where I had an easier time with city states, owing to the fact I spawned on a landmass alone with 3 other city states (and a 4th one up coast). It was a weird "continents" map with multiple civs seemingly having their own landmasses separated by narrow channels.

But did I really do that will with the envoys? Not really, and it's probably better to really not compete for suzerain anyways...

 

[Victoria]

+2 is in fact used most of the times, since you only need the double card the turn you send those envoys.

For Charismatic leader
At Tier 1 it gives you 1 envoy extra per 50 turns
At Tier 2 it gives you 1 envoy extra per 37.5 turns
At Tier 3 it gives you 1 envoy extra per 33.3 turns

And for the way you play lily, the card will at most provide 2-3 envoys. Still worth while of course but I question your use of the words "you only need the double card the turn you send those envoys"

Naturally With Diplomatic League you can get a few envoys in a few short turns if things are right an then swap to Charismatic Leader when you deem the value is no longer there. Its not just when you earn envoys, its how many you also can get through quests to CS you consider valuable and/or less vulnerable.

By building a few CH early you can get 2 envoys from GP (the AI rarely builds CH early) these envoys also can prove invaluable.

 

[Art Morte]

Damn, Vic, stop trying to find an alternative angle so hard, the fact is that the +2 card does get used for some time because there just aren't any other beneficial cards for that slot until you get more cards.

 

[Victoria]

stop trying to find an alternative angle so hard

lol, Its a great card, I do not dispute it. All I was disputing was the bold word below

since you only need the double card the turn you send those envoys.

But yes, someone finally called me out on being a devils advocate... every forum should have one

 

[Archon_Wing]

Actually it is reasonable to call the card crap. True, it may be the best thing available, but that's basically just calling it better than nothing. Heck, I don't even have a diplo slot until MR or sometimes if I get Monarchy, so it's not really missed. I'd rather slot the +1 gold per envoy if it's not going that bad.

 

[Victoria]

I'd rather slot the +1 gold per envoy if it's not going that bad.

Especially if you have done a few quests at +2 envoys each.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Naturally With Diplomatic League you can get a few envoys in a few short turns if things are right an then swap to Charismatic Leader when you deem the value is no longer there. Its not just when you earn envoys, its how many you also can get through quests to CS you consider valuable and/or less vulnerable.

By building a few CH early you can get 2 envoys from GP (the AI rarely builds CH early) these envoys also can prove invaluable.

Finishing quests can also be controlled by player instead of at random time.

 

[Disgustipated]

Especially if you have done a few quests at +2 envoys each.

So I'm unclear on something, do you get the +2 envoys with diplomatic league from quests as well as manually sending an envoy? Assuming they are at 0 envoys of course. I always assumed it had to be a manually sent envoy. If that's the case, it's definitely worth staying in diplomatic league for much longer.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

So I'm unclear on something, do you get the +2 envoys with diplomatic league from quests as well as manually sending an envoy? Assuming they are at 0 envoys of course. I always assumed it had to be a manually sent envoy. If that's the case, it's definitely worth staying in diplomatic league for much longer.

It is the case, but since finishing quests are well-controlled by player, I see no point staying in that.

 

[Victoria]

do you get the +2 envoys with diplomatic league from quests as well as manually sending an envoy?

In all situations the CS has 0.
There is a middle line where you can time and swap these cards between civics. ideally you should be pushing culture first to get to Feudalism and therefore you normally do not have too long to wait between civics.
As I have said a few times, I play some games up to the point I have 100 envoys. Its quite a different approach and makes you more "envoy aware". I recommend it for something different to do.