Does anyone use windmills?

[MagisterCultuum]

Could you just make it so Fair Winds grants +1 to all tiles with a windmill in a +1 radius?

Sure, but I don't think I could make that bonus only be temporary, or prevent the spell from being cast repeatedly possibly by many adepts every turn for hundreds of turns, leading to insanely productive plots. Oh, also, the bonus yields added in python would not depend on the improvement so you could get a windmill plot to produce 100 and then raze it to build a farm or village there to get more or too. It seems harder to abuse if the extra production goes straight to the city than if it is applied to the plot.




I currently have this in my version:

in CvSpelInterface.py:

def reqWindmill(pCaster):
	pPlot = pCaster.plot()
	if pPlot.isBeingWorked():
		return true
	return false


def spellWindmill(pCaster):
	pPlot = pCaster.plot()
	pCity = pPlot.getWorkingCity()
	pCity.changeProduction(pCaster.getExperience())



in CIV4SpellInfos.xml:

	
	<SpellInfo>
		<Type>SPELL_FAIR_WINDS2</Type>
		<Description>TXT_KEY_SPELL_FAIR_WINDS</Description>
		<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_SPELL_PLACEHOLDER_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
		<PromotionPrereq1>PROMOTION_AIR1</PromotionPrereq1>
		<ImprovementPrereq>IMPROVEMENT_WINDMILL</ImprovementPrereq>
		<bAllowAI>1</bAllowAI>
		<bHasCasted>1</bHasCasted>
		<PyResult>spellWindmill(pCaster)</PyResult>
		<PyRequirement>reqWindmill(pCaster)</PyRequirement>
		<Effect>EFFECT_WIND_SWIRL</Effect>
		<Sound>AS3D_SPELL_HASTE</Sound>
		<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Spells/Fairwinds.dds</Button>
	</SpellInfo>

The first time I tested it it seemed way too strong, but it is much less overpowered when you don't give yourself a 1000 xp unit at the start of the game. I think I may change the formula to be based on the unit's level rather than xp anyway though. I'm also thinking I may make it an Air-Earth cross sphere spell, as it represents a way to get productive work out a sphere normally devoted to chaotic, unproductive, irresponsible fun.

 

[Neomega]

windmills are better than mines, IMHO. Mines at end of game give 5 hammer. windmills give 1 food, 4 hammer, and 1 gold. That's just better to me.

While we're on the topic of windmills, I'd like to point out that I'm incredibly skeptical that even an elf could build and effective wind farm in a forest.

Me too. we had this argument on another thread... the answer was "its magical"

And I find it funny, so many peopel think so many improvements are useless. I use all improvements, and I feel windmills are overpowered, in the end, they get you an extra tile bonus. They are actually the best improvement you can make, which I don't like at all, because in the end game, I just windmill spam every hill.

one hammer and one commerce on all your working tiles, creates more potent golden ages

Ah, the sign of someone who has a very deep understanding of this mod. Not surprised you agree with me that windmills are the best improvement.

And crossbowmen aren't bad... but machinery can get you a great engineer too... so it's not that bad of a tech to go for a tad earlier if you can.

 

[Daverd]

Neomega:

1. I'd like to see windmills useful at points other than "end of game". Please refer to previous posts.
2. Machinery isn't free. Please refer to previous posts.
3. Replacing mines with windmills isn't free. Please refer to previous posts.

But you also make a good point. If I'm wrong and you're right, and windmills are so good that you want them on every hill, isn't that ALSO a problem? The choice between mines and windmills makes the game interesting. One being better than the other does not.

Also, I'll have you know that I've been playing on Deity and winning at it. I'd say I have a fairly deep understanding of the mod.

 

[Daverd]

Also, MagisterCultuum, thanks for looking into this! I appreciate the playtesting.

 

[Worm4life]

For a deep understanding, it's not asking, "Isn't one commerce and food better than one hammer?" but rather, "Isn't 9200 extra gold plus worker upkeep/time more valuable at that point than 2-4 extra food per city?"

Exactly how many more golden ages are you expecting to have after that point in the game? A great engineer at that point is also not a huge factor. Best case scenario he gives you that golden age you wanted. That's...what, 300 extra hammers and commerce? Even being super optimistic and saying you're going to have 2 more golden ages after that point it's still only an extra 1200 hammers/commerce compared to the 9200 commerce you spent on machinery.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Actually, now that I think of it, you could make a spell that temporarily increases the yields of the Windmill's plot using the TempTerrain function, but then you'd have to create copies of multiple terrain types.


In my version, you could also create temporary features.


I was actually already thinking of adding Prevailing Winds features (one for each of the 8 directions) to appear in the oceans, which would use <PythonOnMove> calls to make ships or flying units entering those tiles move on to the next tile in that direction without wasting movement points. (I might also ad a 9th, the Doldrums, which has no python effect but just a really high movement cost, and could of course be destroyed with a wind spell.) (I'd probably shrink the graphics down to 1 pixel, so they won't really matter.) I'd have to make my own mapscripts if I wanted to have these appear on random maps, but I could change it so that the Fair Winds spell creates these features (probably splitting the spell into several one version per direction). I believe I could also make it so that the Prevailing Winds features would boost the production of windmills.


Edit: Hmm, I thought that improvements could increase the yields of features, but it seems I was wrong. I guess I'd need to use a different feature to boost windmills, if not just go with a different method altogether.





Ignoring the Air sphere spells for a moment, I tend to think that it would be better for Windmills to become available at Construction and get yield bonuses at both Engineering and Machinery.

 

[Turinturambar]

Neomega:

1. I'd like to see windmills useful at points other than "end of game". Please refer to previous posts.
2. Machinery isn't free. Please refer to previous posts.
3. Replacing mines with windmills isn't free. Please refer to previous posts.

Windmills are superior to mines as soon as you reach engineering provided you have
a) not a civ with significant production modifiers ( i.e Khazad)
b) a use for more food (slavery/ unlimited specialist unlocking civic)
c) solved your happiness problems (social order;gambling houses;guardian of nature)
d) not stockpiled tons of earth mana.

Given that those circumstances happen pretty often, I find windmills to be decently balanced. You need to decide whether spending the worker turns is worth it to get a slightly better improvement. And after machinery they are clearly the better improvement.

The real crappy improvement are workshops, which are useless for nonfallow civs until guilds and even then are only a marginal improvement as more food is usually better than more production in the endgame.

 

[Worm4life]

Windmills are superior to mines as soon as you reach engineering provided you have
a) not a civ with significant production modifiers ( i.e Khazad)

But they're not superior to cottages. Any hills that you're not going to work for hammers, put a cottage on. By the time you get access to mills there should be a town there.

b) a use for more food (slavery/ unlimited specialist unlocking civic)

Why would windmills be a good choice for a specialist based strategy? You're never going to get more than 1 food out of a windmill tile, so working it with a citizen is always going to get you a net food loss. Why not just turn that citizen into a specialist then instead of working the windmill?

c) solved your happiness problems (social order;gambling houses;guardian of nature)

Does anyone even use social order? Setting your tax rate to have gambling houses completely solve your happiness problem is going to cripple your research, putting machinery out of reach.

Given that those circumstances happen pretty often, I find windmills to be decently balanced. You need to decide whether spending the worker turns is worth it to get a slightly better improvement. And after machinery they are clearly the better improvement.

Here's the thing though: you can't just look at the yield bonus. You have to see the bigger picture. It all boils down to this:

Specializing a city is always better. If you specialize it for production, a mine is best for that hill. If commerce, then a cottage. If specialists, then just build farms on flat tiles and don't even bother working the hill. The research cost of machinery plus worker cost/time outweighs the benefit to windmills.


I like the suggestion of making windmills available at construction. There'd have to be a change for the windmill boost to be worth researching. Make machinery a little cheaper (city defending archery units are pretty pointless at that stage anyway)? Move the boost down to engineering while making machinery a lot cheaper to compensate? Possibly look at changing the boost from 0/+1/+1 to something like +1/0/+1 so it doesn't become a straight up upgrade from mines but rather a benefit in a different direction.

 

[Neomega]

But you also make a good point. If I'm wrong and you're right, and windmills are so good that you want them on every hill, isn't that ALSO a problem?

absolutely it's a problem. :/ I hate it when there is an obvious better choice. Windmills actually give two extra yield over blasting powder mines. (+ 2 ) That is windmill spam city. Windmills are the obvious choice.

So as you can see, this subject scares me, because I would actually like windmills nerfed. They should probably lose an extra hammer.

Also, I'll have you know that I've been playing on Deity and winning at it. I'd say I have a fairly deep understanding of the mod.

ok.

Why would windmills be a good choice for a specialist based strategy? You're never going to get more than 1 food out of a windmill tile, so working it with a citizen is always going to get you a net food loss. Why not just turn that citizen into a specialist then instead of working the windmill?

Green hills give 2 , 3 , 2 at end game.





workshops are good for green flatlands, that's about it.

 

[shippokirara]

why dont we edit the windmill so that you can use it on flat planes that way if i were to build a city in the middle of aplane i coudl get it running until i can expand borders to get other things. tahtway every place can be a tactically sound spot to expand

 

[JFSebastian]

Why would windmills be a good choice for a specialist based strategy? You're never going to get more than 1 food out of a windmill tile, so working it with a citizen is always going to get you a net food loss. Why not just turn that citizen into a specialist then instead of working the windmill?

Can windmills increase the number of specialists you can work in a city? No. Can windmills increase the size of a city while maintaining the same number of specialists? Yes.

Does anyone even use social order? Setting your tax rate to have gambling houses completely solve your happiness problem is going to cripple your research, putting machinery out of reach.

You can run a 0% science economy and still create a lot of research using councils, inspirations and sages. The large gold economy allows for rapid expansion, which makes up for the limited amount of science/city. A single super science city also works well in this setup using the academy, great library, great sages & crown.

 

[far_wanderer]

Because workshops keep being brought up, I thought I'd mention that they actually work perfectly, in that they do something no other improvement does. What I use workshops for is when I'm setting up a new city and it needs a few extra hammers to get going. Later on, once it has a few improvements and a few more citizens, the miscellaneous hammers from other tiles have built up and the workshop can be replaced by something that is now more useful. So that's what they are: specialized. Good in a few situations and worse in others.

 

[Taalen]

I must say I'll take back my original comment at the beginning of this thread - as a Financial leader (unless I go Arete) I would change mines to windmills after Machinery.

 

[Aeon221]

If you look back at the real world use of wind and water mills, they generally increased the productivity of other industries rather than generating resources on their own. Water mills were frequently used to power early modern industrial facilities, for instance large scale forges, while wind and water mills were both popular sources of power for grinding grain and other agricultural products.

It seems quite clear to me that the most beneficial use of both improvements would be a percentage increase in the overall output of the cities. I'd allow worked windmills to add, say, 3% to all three output types, and worked watermills, say, 5% -- with the percentage increased via techs. That way there'd be a trade off -- how many mines or farms do you give up, thereby lowering your base output, to increase your overall output.

Certainly it'd be more interesting than a hybrid production building of dubious utility.

 

[NobbynobLittlun]

I noticed something interesting in one of my games a couple weeks back (see attached image). There's a water duct running from a windmill next to the river over to the city.

Some experimentation in the World Builder indicates that this is purely coincidence. It's just the graphic for the aqueduct. However... if having a windmill next to a fresh water source were to pump fresh water to its city when worked (thus snagging +1), and maybe even run ducts over to irrigate farms without having to use other farms to bridge irrigation (i.e. for a remote corn field), that'd be darned cool. And conceivably we could just reuse the aqueduct graphic.

 

[JFSebastian]

Regarding making a spell that boosts windmills. Thought this might be a cleaver method to use. Have the spell replace the windmill with a new improvement called "enchanted windmill" or whatever. This new improvement would have the bonus, perhaps even a modified graphic, but it would also have an upgrade counter similar to a cottage. When it "upgrades", it actually downgrades back into a normal windmill, hence making it a temporary spell.

 

[Neomega]

It would be hella cool for windmills to get a wind spell to make them better, but a wind mana bonus would probably be simpler to implement. A final game windmill should produce the same amount of yield icons as a mine. IIRC windmills were much better suited to agricultural uses than to industrial uses, (before electricity) so I think they should never give a hammer bonus. That's water wheels and workshops.

(Also workshops and mines should give about .25 each)

Another idea might be an magical windmill improvement that can only be built by workers when your capital has access to wind mana. It would only be a windmill with perhaps a +.25 , but it could be awesome, (esp with a custom windmill graphic)

But now that I am thinking of mana specific improvments....