Domestic issues 460 AD

[TheViking]

By far the biggest issue facing us is WLTP.

We have the option of starting WLTP now or collecting some $$ and buying improvements. Since we can make all cities celebrate by setting luxuries to 50% (and taxes to 50% to collect $$ to rush buy stuff for WLTP) I suggest we do so. Since we currently have very few improvements in our cities this will run out of steam very soon but is still sufficient to grow all cities of size 3 and bigger by 1 and possibly 2. So I suggest we do this and then shut down the celebrations for maybe 3-5 turns, set taxes to maximum and rush buy needed stuff (temples, harbors and marketplaces) and after these 3-5 turns restart WLTP. The aim is to get all cities to size 8, except for Dou which should grow to size 12 without big difficulties since it has the HG.

We should also make major changes to production in our cities because of WLTP, switching from caravans to improvements, except where the caravans are almost finished. There we should rush buy them (VM, RF, PB, LC). We also should probably not change production in the small cities (2 and less). If we do this I suggest we deliver the RF, LC and PB caravans in Dou to get 3 trade routes there immediately, this will give us lots of $$ etc. in the long run. Dou's caravan should then be sent to a foreign civ. Dou should switch to aqueduct and RB it when it reaches size 8.

I'm not giving the military any consideration since I'm assuming it's the military advisor's work to make recomendations/polls to decide which units to disband, rehome and position elsewhere.

EDIT This poll is rather complex and creating it was not easy because I'm assuming we'll be starting WLTP now (or very soon at the very latest) and planning it in details in advance is something I usually do not do; I set taxes to maximum and rush buy stuff on an as needed basis. Some comments:

(1) Only vote for A1.1 or A1.2 if you vote for A1.

(2) One of B1 to B4 should only be voted for if you vote for B, otherwise it hardly makes sense to RB the caravans.

(3) I recommend E1, I want 3 trade routes in Dou ASAP since their long term payoff is huge, however, only vote for this if you vote for B (otherwise the caravans won't exist !). I have changed my mind about Dou's caravan (in the last poll I was recommending domestic trading for it), if (and only if) you vote for E1 I recommend sending it abroad.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

I would delay the Celebrations by just a few turns. I would rush at least one more caravan out of Dou, preferably 2 more (so we can deliver it for a big foreign bonus), before dumping local caravans in for the trade routes. I agree with getting harbors in place because the ocean trade may be necessary to keep a lot of celebrations going. In fact I would put a harbor in RF before the market you recommend.

For C I assume you mean switch after the caravans are done.

D. I'd rush buy that caravan in Dough and send it abroad instead of wasting shields switching to aquaduct immediately . By the time it reaches it's destination, the city will probably be much larger so the bonus should be substantial. With the taxes raised for a few turns, I could even see rushing a third caravan to ensure 3 high bonus foreign deliveries (if you can get the city up to 10 sheilds it's not that expensive), while other cities can funnel their goods to Dough for the trade route bonuses.

It's going to be hard to buy everything we need in all cities. I think we should identify "favored cities" where we can easily grow the cities (sufficient food, trade) and focus our rush buying on these cities rather than trying to grow every size 3 city immediately. Obviously Doughnutia is favored over all else, but Neumatic, and RF are also good candidates. With a harbor, Igloria could also be good with all that ocean (and the remaining hidden special, especially if it's silk). On the other hand, cities like Nae, Ipec and VM will be great cities in democracy, but the have such high corruption now, they probably shouldn't receive much extra spending until the other cities are better developed.

Voted as follows:

A2 - We don't have enough cash to accomplish the goals before us.

B (I'd prioritize Dough caravans as well). Actually, RF should finish in 2 turns so I wouldn't RB the van there, but yes to the others.

B1 - Yes, Harbors fuel celebrations! however I would consider skipping them in the Eastern cities due to corruption making celebrations more difficult. Focus on favored cities.

C1- Actually market in Neu,LC and Harbor in RF but finish caravans almost done in LC and RF first so sheilds are not wasted.

D2 - I'd try to RB 2nd and 3rd caravans in Dou for high payout foreign deliveries.

E1. Once the caravans in D2 are built and in transit to foreign cities, deliver the domestic vans to Dou to get trade routes in both Dou and the source cities.

F1 - Deliver abroad, preferably making delivery after getting size up near 12. As mentioned above, I'd like to see three Dough vans go abroad.

 

[funxus]

After reading through the two posts above, I agree that 174g now and 22g/turn isn't going to get us far. So building three caravans in Dou first, deliver domestic vans from our cities to Dou and deliver abroad caravans to Athens, Ulundi and Delhi(unless commodities change)? Setting taxes to 80% for a few turns I agree with, but for how many turns or shall we stop when we have aquired a certain amount of cash?

Which shall our favored cities be? Those mentioned by Tim, and also LC (Silk and two river squares)

 

[TheViking]

Originally posted by TimTheEnchanter
For C I assume you mean switch after the caravans are done.

Yes, I do - I knew the poll was complex .

On reflection I agree with much of what Tim says, I now think we should RB (or PRB) Dou's caravan, IIRC (I'm at work now ) we have enough cash for that and the other four caravans I recommended rush buying. We should probably rush another caravan for Dou as well. If we manage to deliver all three of Dou's caravans without our triremes being sunk we'll get lots of cash that can be used to RB stuff. And we should not deliver caravans to Dou until it has its 3 caravans in transit to foreign cities. So my original vote for D1 should really be D2 .

The favored cities idea is good, these cities should IMO be cities relatively close to Dou. LC, RF, Neu and maybe PB are obvious candidates and it would be nice to have one big city in the far east as well (probably Ipec or VM), however, there's a lot of corruption there (courthouse ?).

That said, we can get all cities celebrating now by setting luxuries to 50%. I agree that 174 gold doesn't get us far but we would then simply shut WLTP down in 2 turns and every size 3+ city would have grown by one - this wastes one turn (the cities won't grow next turn) but gives us more gold when we subsequently set taxes to 80% (but maybe not so much since Dou will grow anyway and contributes a lot...)

 

[TheViking]

Originally posted by funxus
Setting taxes to 80% for a few turns I agree with, but for how many turns or shall we stop when we have aquired a certain amount of cash?

Regardless of whether we set taxes to 80% now or 2-3 turns from now after a short WLTP I think we should keep them at 80% until we have a certain amount of cash rather than after a specific number of turns - the big question is what this amount should be (probably 300-600 gold). We will also be rush buying several caravans ASAP.

Once we have this amount of cash we'll set luxuries high (probably to 50%) and science to 0% and thus continue to earn some cash while celebrating.

When WLTP finishes we'll have a much better science rate than now; at that point or a turn or two later we'll probably rush buy a University in Dou.

 

[funxus]

So, just to sum it up:

This turn we'll set lux at 50% to grow all cities by one (rest on tax, or some on sci?). We'll also help any Dou caravan that needs help to be finished, and RB caravans in VM, PB and LC. These caravans will be transported to Dou, where they'll wait until Dou has built 3 of its own, then deliver. Dou also need an aqueduct after the caravan it's building now.

In two turns, we'll set tax at 80% and sci at 20%. We'll run like this until we get 300-600g. Question: Should this be a treasury of 300g-600g or the amount we aquire (because I assume we're gonna spend it on caravans and improvements immediately?).

When we have money and have built the improvements needed, or are about to build, we set lux at 50% (the rest on what?), until we decide next time.

Please correct this plan if anything is not clear or is wrong.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Ending the celebrations after 2 turns means only one extra citizen per city. If you're going to celebrate right away, I would not make it such a hard-and-fast cutoff. Check the celebration cities, and see if you can keep the celebrations going an extra turn to get a 2nd citizen. (try moving workers to trade squares or even elvi, etc.) As long as the majority of these cities continue to celebrate (and have food surplus!) let them grow. I suspect we can probably get 2 citizens in most of those cities.

Once you decide to end the celebrations, 80 tax, 20 science would be nice, but may need to have some luxuries (or elvi) to keep the larger cities content.

 

[TheViking]

Because things are starting to get complicated now that we have many cities and lots of things to do the Ministry of Domestic Affairs (MoDA) plans to make public a list of what to do in the next several turns, based on poll results and the preceding discussion. The list will appear a few hours from now. Due to time zones etc. the poll results may have changed tomorrow when funxus plays but hardly very much so even then it should be obvious what to do.

 

[funxus]

Thanks Viking, that'd help me a lot.

 

[Leowind]

As Science Advisor and director of the OSR, I must strongly object to setting science rate to 0%.

As citizen and Civ2 player, I am curious about this plan. It sounds like several turns of switching from lux to tax, with no science going on. I know increasing our number of citizens will increase our science rate, but if we research no science at all for several turns to get there, we will be a few centuries recouping our investment. Can someone with experience with this sort of WLTP strategy further explain how not doing any research for several turns can be a benefit?

 

[TheViking]

There is a very good reason for setting science to 0%. At the end of this roughly 10 turns from now our population will have more than doubled, Dou will have three trade routes and I expect our science program to yield discoveries every 2 or 3 turns at 80% science instead of the current 5 turns. Caravans from Dou, some of which will be rush bought for the cash from the high taxes, will be about to delivered to foreign cities, giving us extra money and science. A University will be rush bought in Dou once it is discovered. The net result is that 15 turns from now we will have done more science than we will accomplish by doing 80% science now (and believe me, once in democracy, more than one discovery per turn becomes possible occasionally with the help of caravan deliveries).

In this context the difference between 0% and 10% science is insignificant while a 10% change in luxuries and/or taxes can be quite significant.

The reason for the 0% science rate is that first of all we need to keep luxuries as high as needed to keep all cities of size 3+ celebrating. At the same time, a lot of cash is needed to rush buy stuff to make it possible to keep the cities celebrating (marketplaces, temples and maybe courthouses) and stuff to ensure a food surplus (harbors) so the cities can grow while celebrating.

This costs lots of money but when this ends Doughnutia will have a size of 12 and most of the 3+ size cities a size of 8 (some possibly 9 or 10). The end result is a vastly better science rate and a lot more gold per turn from trade routes and taxes. We will very quickly recoup the temporary science loss, probably 15 turns from now or earlier, as previously mentioned.