Double Your Civ

[predesad]

GAME STARTED: rubberjello vs predesad

COMPLETE GAME SETUP CAN BE FOUND IN POST #8 FOR ANY LURKERS

I am always thinking / looking for different types of games / looking to modify the game in some way. This idea I have thought if for some time, but hav enot really wanted to add another PBEM to my schedule, but I have recently finished two and have the time now, so here is the plan:

2 human players, each player chooses a civ (my challenger can choose first or opt to have me choose first) these two civs are then combined to make one doubled civ which would then have 4 traits and 2 UU.

Example: India & Dutch

-India gets agricultural and seafaring traits added and the swiss mercenary replaces pikemen

-Dutch get commercial and religious traits added and the war elephant replaces the knight

*note: either uu can generate GA for either player

So now, not only have two civs been combined, but the opponents have 2 identical civs.

To add to the complexity of the game, we will throw in 6 AI my challenger and myself will combine to develop the AI opponents for doubled / combined civs. We will each design an AI on our own by combining 2 civs, this would give a total of 4 AI, or 2 pairs of identical AI. The last pair of AI opponents we will each choose a civ and they will be combined as we did in choopsing our own civs. This sounds more complicated than it is. The only restrictions are no civ can be used twice, and no trying to combine civs which have a common trait so that only 3 traits result instead of the 4, and prefer not to have UU which replace the same unit (EX: Rider & Keshik)

A thorough example of the civ setups:

We use the Dutch and India for the human players as before
Then I choose the Aztecs and Greece as AI so those two are combined to make 2 AI which are militaristic, agricultural, commercial, and scientific having Jag Warriors and Hoplites as UU.
My challenger chooses Celts and China as AI so those two are combined to make 2 AI which are agricultural, religious, industrial, and militaristic having Gallic Swordsmen and Riders as UU.
Finally, I choose the Byzantines and my challenger chooses France as AI so those two are combined to make 2 AI which are seafaring, scientific, commercial, and industrious having Dromons and Musketeers as UU.

Of course, I am not dead set on this exact setup, I am just wanting to try the doubled / combined civs thing so this is negotiable if another player has an alternative idea.

Finally, after all civs are chosen, one civ in each pair is assigned the same cultural group, then culturally linked starts are turned on. Then each human should start near 3 AI, one from each pair. Meaning we are not only playing identical civs, are neighbors are identical as well. (other factors such as aggression can be averaged or another method chosen to make the AI as alike as possible, ideally only the civ, leader, and city names differ in these pairs.

I also think a pangea or possibly continents would be the best landmass, but I am open to allowing anyone who is interested to choose the settings.

So, anyone interested?

Anyone thinks they might be interested but have some questions?

Anyone think this is a really stupid idea?

 

[Rubberjello]

I'll bite. I hope you know what the effect of mutiple civ traits does to an AI on high level of difficulties. In your Equality game, the Japan AI almost ran away with the entire game (4 humans playing). It was mostly luck I was able to catch up with them. The "inflation" effect on the tech race is something to be wary of.
Let me think about the parameters before coming back with Civ choices.

 

[predesad]

thanks for the interest RJ, and yes, I am aware of the effect of multiple traits at higher difficultiy levels as i have played several versions of my Equality in testing for a mod I had thought of creating, but gave up due to lack of time. Those production / growth / research bonuses + all those traits + all that unit support, very very tough. They have a 50% discount on all those improvements, then that cut by the difficulty modifier, for example on just emporer level a barracks costs just 16, a temple 24, a library 32, aqueduct 40, harbor 24. And i think Equality was set up on DG. So how is the Equality game going?

I was really hoping for not too high on difficulty level, only monarch or maybe emporer, but whatever (let's not do cheiftain though). As far as civ choices, it will take awhile to set this up due to having to make the necessary choices and being fair about it, at first you only need to make one choice for our civ to give me a fair chance at choosing the second civ to be combined (unless you want me to make a choice first because whoever chooses second could end up with more influence, but who knows) then after that we can start doing the AI.

 

[Rubberjello]

I'll go first. I choose.....
the Zulu!

just kidding!

I'll go for the Ottomans. Industrious, Scientific. - Saphai.

In the Equality game, I'm in a fight to the death with Japan right now. I'm slightly ahead of them in tech because they went to Fascism, but they've captured 3 of my border cities. I've killed literally hundreds and hundreds of Saphai. (usually 15 or so a turn, and we've been at war for 30+ turns right now.) I've managed to stay in Republic almost the whole game.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

I'll subscribe to see how this plays out. It would be interesting to see how 4 players would pick their unique combinations of civs...

Do you combine Mayan (Industrious and Agricultural) with Greek (Scientific and commercial) giving the Hoplites for defence and Javelin throwers in hopes for a quick boos with slave labour?

Or maybe the Romans (Militaristic and Commercial) with the Mayans so that the Legions can break the cities while the Javelin throwers pick off straggling units...

Celts (Acricultural and Religeous) combined with Germans (Militaristic and Scientific) could have the Gallic Swordsman to keep you alive early and the Panzers ready to finish off pesky AI...

 

[predesad]

The Ottomans, one of my favorites, love those 2 trait combos and an awesome uu, the only thing that could make that civ better is if we added the Iroquois. Granted, if we don't get horses we're pretty much screwed concerning UU, but I am gonna love that trait combination (Industrious, Commercial, Agricultural, and Scientific) we actually do not get very many cheap improvements, but the effects of that combination should be awesome. Wondering what it will take for a peaceful GA?

Curious about the game parameters you are considering, since you did not post any I was very heistant to choose either a seafaring or expansionist, but I think I like that combination no matter what.

@Gnarfflinger: glad to have a lurker already, about to play BK's RAR in a few minutes.

Go ahead and choose the first AI pair (both civs) then I will choose another AI pair then we will go with the final pair where we each get a choice.

 

[Rubberjello]

I'm going to choose the following, and hope that they are both your neighbors and not mine!
Romans: Military, Commercial - Legion
Arabia: Expansionist, Religious - Ansar Warriors

BTW. Continents would be good. Hostile Barbs. Emporer setting (which may require us cooperating with each other for a while so that the AIs don't run away with this thing)

 

[predesad]

Ha Ha, your AI choice is similar to what I had been thinking for mine (greece and mongols or china) but instead I think i will go with -

Persia: Industrious & Scientific - Immortals
Aztecs: Militaristic & Agricultural - Jaguar Warrior

Originally i had said I would average the agression level of the two civs, but perhaps we should go with both civs having the highest setting of the two. guess it doesn't matter much as our choices so far are high on agression.

Continents & Emporer. Hostile Barbs, does that mean restless? Any other preferences for settings? (no need to mention AP, it will be off)

Waiting your final civ choice for the last AI pair (one civ, i choose the other) and any other settings then I will most likely start this tomorrow, a few questions might arise in the set up like starting techs, I had failed to mention each civ would get 4 (the two sets of starting techs for each pair) but there could be a potential conflict with some traits having same starting techs.

Game Setup:

Normal Climate, Temperate 4 billion year old continental world with 70% water and restless barbs. Emporer Difficulty with all standard victory conditions (no wonder) No AP, No Sci Leaders, No respawn, Preserve Random seed is on, culturally linked starts on to (hopefully) evenly distribute civ pairs [idealy 4 civs per continent, one from each pair].

RJ & predesad: Ottomans / Iroquois - Commercial, Scientific, Agricultural, Industrious; Sipahi & Mounted Warirors; Alphabet, Bronze Working, Pottery, Masonry

First AI pair: Rome / Arabs - Militaristic, Commercial, Expansionist, Religious; Legionaries & Ansar Warriors; Warrior Code, Alphabet, Pottery, Ceremonial Burial; Aggression level 4; Fav gov't Republic / shunned despotism

Second AI pair: Persia / Aztecs - Industrious, Scientific, Militaristic, Agricultural; Immortals & Jaguar Warriors; Masonry, Bronze Working, Warrior Code, Pottery; Aggression level 4; Fav gov't despotism / shunned republic

Third AI pair: Third AI pair: Mayan / Mongol - Militaristic, Expansionist, Agricultural, Industrious; Javelin Throwers & Keshiks; Warrior Code, Pottery, Masonry, & Alphabet; Aggression Level 4; Fav gov't Feudalism / shunned Democracy

-RJ's culture group Mid East (Ottomans (RJ), Arabia, Persia, Maya)
-predesad's culture group American (Iroquois (predesad), Rome, Aztecs, Mongol)

 

[Rubberjello]

Last Choice: Maya - Industrious, Agricultural - Jav Thrower.

 

[predesad]

What to put with the Maya? (Industrial, Agricultural)

I don't know. (I am actually thinking as I type this)

I don't want to give them Greece (Commercial / Scientific) or they will have the same traits as RJ & I. I don't want to give them Germany or they will be like the Aztecs / Persians only with not as good uu set up. I don't want to give them Seafaring ro Religious (because on Emporer the max gov't transition is 3 turns so the trait is really only good for 1/2 price buildings).

Well, take away the Industrial, Agricultural, Religious and Seafaring Traits leaves me with Commercial, Scientific, Militaristic, and Expansionist.

Hmmm, that leaves the following combinations:

Commercial Scientific (already ruled out)
Commercial Militaristic (Rome already used)
Commercial Expansionist (Hittites, doubt it)
Scientific Mlitaristic (already ruled out)
Scientific Expansionist (Russia, maybe)
Militaristic Expansionist (Zulu / Mongols)

Let's go with the Mongols making the last pair Mayan / Mongol - Militaristic, Expansionist, Agricultural, Industrial with Javelin Throwers & Keshiks, aggression level will also be 4, the Mayans will be placed in RJ's culture group (Mid East) the Mongols in mine (American)

No other settings suggestions given so unless you object I am going with Continental, 70% H2O, Temperate, Normal, Emporer, Preserve Random Seed, No AP, No Scientific Leaders, Restless Barbs.

 

[Rubberjello]

We are launched! I extend wishes of bad luck to my worthy foe, assuming the AIs don't wipe one of us out before we meet!

 

[predesad]

Turn back to RJ, I would also wish my opponent bad luck, but since we took great pains to make the game hard for each other, even though it meant making it hard for ourselves, there is no need. There is a very real possibility the winner of this game could simply be the survivor. We are hopefully on two seperate continents with 3 AI neighbors, one from each chosen pair. Playing on Emporer level with all our neighbors at aggression level 4, and throw in restless barbs. Why didn't one of us choose a militaristic civ for ourselves??

 

[Gnarfflinger]

Actually, I think you guys got the best combination of traits available...

 

[predesad]

that's hard to say really because I don't think it's ever been fully tested how four traits will interact. militaristic could make a difference, or expansionist, but that trait is sometimes like playing RNG lottery and it is a lot of work to maximize its benefits. But I really do like our combo and you could be right, perhaps it is the most balanced set up as far as interaction - faster growth, faster infrastructure, more science, and less corruption to better take advantage of it all. I may still lament the lack of elite units and MGLs though, or complain when I have popped barbs out of a hut and then they killed my unit and proceeded to sack my city.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

Believe me, there are some that would wash my mouth out with soap when I encounter such bad luck...

 

[predesad]

game progressing nicely, 3 turns yesterday, 5 today (going to bed now) the mayans of the mayan / aztec combo are taking an early lead, they must have popped a settler. RJ's score has crept up, I bet he hooked to a lux early, the only explanation I can see because it is not a big jump just a few extra points so I am thinking he is getting more points now for having 1 happy citizen instead of 1 content.

 

[Rubberjello]

A very astute observation, there Predesad. Yep. I had Wines close by my start position. Now I just have to worry about my Industrious Worker not imbibing too much and becoming...well...non-industrious!
Don't worry about me getting a "great" start position though. It will never be a powerhouse city as there are plains all around and no food bonuses.

 

[predesad]

A very astute observation, there Predesad. Yep. I had Wines close by my start position. Now I just have to worry about my Industrious Worker not imbibing too much and becoming...well...non-industrious!
Don't worry about me getting a "great" start position though. It will never be a powerhouse city as there are plains all around and no food bonuses.

sure, maybe there are no food bonuses to see right now, but not much of the map has been discovered and you could very well have a 4 turn settler factory in th emaking lying right outside your capitol, the perfect spot for a second (powerhouse) city.

 

[predesad]

Spent a lot of time trying to figure out the best strategy for this game. If the civ placement holds as it should ideally, we will have 4 civs on 2 different continents, RJ and I will be on seperate continents. Given the settings (continent / 70% water) contact between continents might not be possible until Astronomy (no seafaring civs) It seems this game might be like playing two individual games, RJ has his on his continent, while I have mine on my continent, at least until partway through the MA.

I have been trying to decide whether to go builder or warmongerer and I cannot make up my mind. there are advantages / disadvantages to both.

As a builder, I could bribe / gift the AI and cave in to their demands to stay out of war and trade my way through the tech tree. Most likely I would be on the small side with the AI out expanding me, but then I might have the opportunity to get ahead of RJ in tech and discover the other continent first.

As a warmongerer, I could try to claim my entire continent (or most of it) and supplement tech with pointy stick research. I could be huge, but tech would suffer as trade would decline as would the overall tech pace on this continent with the wars so I could very well fall behind RJ in tech.

At the emporer level I am comfortable playing either way, the problem is I am afraid if I choose one direction, RJ would end up using the other and whichever one I choose would be the wrong one. Of course, the beefed up AI might make me eat my words on this level. I mean, first of all, we gave the Mayan / Mongols the ability to build their UU immediately at 24 shields per, all the while their scout will map out territory and discover us. To top that off, the only AI which is not expansionist has the jaguar warrior, so while they pour jags into our territory, they have discovered ironworking (since they start with bronze working anyway), and find an iron resource. So we manage to beat back the Jags, only their GA has kicked off and now they are cranking out Immortals at 24 shields per. If that wasn't bad enough, those Aztecs / Persians trade iron working to the Romans / Arabs who have mapped out our territory with their scout and found their own iron so here come legions at 24 shields per. The worst part is the only horse resource in sight will be sitting right underneath a barb camp on a hill, so no Mounted Warriors . . .

Anyway, the whole point is, I will most likely need to play a balanced game. Any lurkers out there who have any strategic advice for this set up, I am recruiting you now, PM any advice you can think of, please.

 

[Rubberjello]

All I can say is...I really, really hope the Maya are next to you and not me! They've must have popped 2 (or 3?) settlers already as their score is 90, almost doubling ours with only 8 turns gone!