Drafting is too powerful?

[loki]

I find drafting to be too easy. I am almost always the agressor, at one point or another. Keeping my target out of salpeter, or iron to prevent him from getting better defending units than spearmen. Then, I roll into his territory with my army of cavalry, seizing towns after towns.
Now, the AI hits Nationalism. All of a sudden, due to drafting, dozens of Riflemen show up. Cavalry against riflemen is a suicide, even conscripts, and it's a damn sure way to promote them too. So, I am stopped in my righteous crusade against the evil russians!!
Considering the number of shields it takes to produce a riflemen (or an infantry unit ), I think it unbalances the game too much in favour of the defender.

loki

 

[Mapache]

A size 7 city drafts 2 defenders and shrinks to 5. It actually loses its city defense bonus.
Unlike yours my Cavalry is used to Riflemen and prefers conscripts.

 

[6-of-october]

thats funny

 

[Selous]

drafting is great, and balanced i beleive, because u can only draft defencive units, they are slightly weaker than built units, cause unhappyness and u will soon get tanks. i only ever draft when at war and i need em and when facing tanks u need every unit u can get your hands on

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by 6-of-october
thats funny

"The Evolution of humans into what they are today was mostly because of the wars they had among each other. Just another opinon!!"

Concerning your tag-line. If you mean social evolution, you are certainly correct. If you mean biological evolution, then probably not according to studies. Most evolution is through a process called punctuated evolution. In other words, adapted species change very little. Instead, they are replaced. Gradual evolution is only a first order approximation. A closer look shows evolution occurs in jumps and starts.

In the specific case of humankind, warfare is a relatively new phenomena and has had only small effects on the gene pool. A cursory glance at the Bible indicates that the jealousy, greed, love and violence of mankind has very deep roots. In other words, these archaic humans appear to be just like modern humans.

Humans, like most other species, will probably remain the same -- until they are extinct.

 

[6-of-october]

Originally posted by Zachriel


If you mean social evolution, you are certainly correct. If you mean biological evolution,

I meant social ,tehnological and ideals. When you come to think of it wars made humans use their brains extensively.

As for drafting I have never had any problems with it in the Game.
but rifelmen can really slow cavlery but they are beatable.

 

[BillChin]

You have a lot of options to counter drafting. Pillage their irrigation, fortify on their farms to starve their cities. Conscript Rifleman are very weak on the offense and Calvary will retreat if injured. Bombard their population with cannons and later bombers, only cities with more than six citizens can draft. If you have big enough stacks of Calvary you can take out Riflemen. It is six offense vs. six defense and your units can retreat. It is the same odds as Horsemen vs. Spearmen and I crush the opponent with that match up every time.

The odds are in your favor. Find a way to win, instead of wanting the game to be made even easier for you.

 

[loki]

Originally posted by BillChin
You have a lot of options to counter drafting. Pillage their irrigation, fortify on their farms to starve their cities. Conscript Rifleman are very weak on the offense and Calvary will retreat if injured. Bombard their population with cannons and later bombers, only cities with more than six citizens can draft. If you have big enough stacks of Calvary you can take out Riflemen. It is six offense vs. six defense and your units can retreat. It is the same odds as Horsemen vs. Spearmen and I crush the opponent with that match up every time.

The odds are in your favor. Find a way to win, instead of wanting the game to be made even easier for you.

Fact is, I have sized my attacking military force for an easy (and most important FAST) victory. I didn't bring the slow cannons with. My post is not about how to win against conscript riflemen with cavalry, I would know how to do that given the right means to do it (i.e : protected artillery, pillage, communism...).
I am frustrated by drafting, because it allows top defensive units to a civ I have done everything I could to deny it to them.
For instance, you could be able to draft riflemen, when you actually built at least one (for your whole civ).
I don't want the game to be made easier for me, I just consider drafting to help defender too much. No need to jump on my back for that.

loki

 

[Zachriel]

I got caught by surprise when the AI upgraded their units.

They had riflemen. I prepared a rifle/cannon attack, which took about a dozen turns to move into position in the mountains overlooking the city. Then as I started my attack, they upgraded to infantry. What a mess!

 

[s3d]

Originally posted by loki

Fact is, I have sized my attacking military force for an easy (and most important FAST) victory. I didn't bring the slow cannons with. My post is not about how to win against conscript riflemen with cavalry, I would know how to do that given the right means to do it (i.e : protected artillery, pillage, communism...).
I am frustrated by drafting, because it allows top defensive units to a civ I have done everything I could to deny it to them.
For instance, you could be able to draft riflemen, when you actually built at least one (for your whole civ).
I don't want the game to be made easier for me, I just consider drafting to help defender too much. No need to jump on my back for that.

loki

You can always use mods if you don't like original setting.
{Shameless mode on}
In my mod for example I have a plenty of units capable of attack hard targets.
{Shameless mode off}
But be prepared AI assault units attacking your cities

 

[Chicken_Salad]

"Gradual evolution is only a first order approximation. A closer look shows evolution occurs in jumps and starts. "

And there is no physical evidence to support any of it. To assume humans evolved from a chunck of rock takes a giant leap of faith and logic.

Don't even get me started.......

 

[Jimcat]

And to assume that any of the other creation myths are true requires an equal leap of faith and the total abandonment of logic.

 

[Zachriel]

The scientific consensus is that theory of evolution is as much a fact as the theory of gravity. Here is the view from the National Academy of Sciences:
http://books.nap.edu/html/creationism/introduction.html

I apologize as this is off-topic.

 

[Chicken_Salad]

Gravity is a law not a theory.

 

[BillChin]

You describe your army as relatively small. You are about even in tech (Military Tradition for Calvary, Nationalism for the draft). I think it is fair that the defender has some chance in that situation (though it is a small chance) even if they have no resources. The game designers put in Riflemen without any resource requirement for game balance. Nationalism is a dead end tech. Steam Power gives a lot bigger boost, so only players that need the draft and/or mobilization go for Nationalism first.

With a large force of Calvary or a decent tech advantage (Bombers or Tanks), a player can roll over conscript Riflemen. Riflemen are better defenders than Spearmen but they are still relatively easy to take out. Infantry are much tougher. You had a huge military advantage for the entire second age (Knights vs. Spearmen), and could have translated that into a big tech advantage, but you chose not to.

Look at the other side: How would you feel if an enemy with a small army and the same tech can cut you to ribbons because your saltpeter or iron depleted or was captured or bombarded? Resources are an important part of the game, but tech and army size also count for a lot.

Originally posted by loki

I am frustrated by drafting, because it allows top defensive units to a civ I have done everything I could to deny it to them.
loki

 

[chiefpaco]

It's a bit tough because the game is as much about resources than anything else & riflemen break this concept. I think if the civpedia said "Guns are of abundance now & you don't need saltpeter" instead of "Saltpeter is in abundance..." then it may make things clearer.

Maybe by this time in history, a lot of everyday Joes have a gun under their bed & the local govt outpost has an ammunition warehose. To say that it's possible to gather a local unit of unexperienced "conscript" defenders at the sacrifice of population and unhappiness is not a big stretch IMHO.

 

[Greadius]

I also think it is very realistic... in my opinion, Nationalism reflects that WW1 period when they could drag out millions of people with guns and line them up, but couldn't successfully take any territory. Nationalism is also supposed to reflect the idea that those people will die trying to defend their country against your aggressive army. People defending their homes have a huge intangible advantage.

I usually stop my war machine at that point and build up my territorities and navies. Its really tough to take territory against a high population defender with nationalism unless you use the slow, plodding army with a ton of artillery and improvement whackers. Sieges can be fun

 

[Selous]

i was just thinking ... for someone being rooted out of resorces ... the rifleman teck is such a huge step! as u need iron for pikemen and saltpeter for muskets then u can get a good defencive troop without any resorces. but i dont think ANY advantage to the defender will unballence the game because it just requires the agressor to be more powerful

and actually ... i have a theory on modern day evolution, i think all the noble and honourable traits of the human race are being wiped out, stalin killed everyone there that had there own ideas, hitler killed the jews that refused to run, the allies killed the german peoples, the germans killed the allies, chairman mao did the same as stalin (there is a long history of this kind of stuff in china) the bravest and most nobal japaneese killed themself in kamakazi attacks, and the only people that are surviving are the cowards that shun away from nobal deeds (not only but the nobal peoples out there dont run) ... and this is my theory why the world is so crappy, the distructive power of modern day weapons is killing the cream of human society so all the cowards and draft dodgers survive the confilcts and continue to breed

another usless side note .... did u know that Jimi Hendrix joined the US paratroopers when vietnam was on because he beleived in the fight against communism, but then the poor bugger broke his leg ... stupid sleeping pills

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Greadius
I also think it is very realistic... in my opinion, Nationalism reflects that WW1 period when they could drag out millions of people with guns and line them up, but couldn't successfully take any territory.

Indeed, lining up at Gettysburg is not as typical of rifleman combat as was the siege of Richmond.

At the beginning of the Civil War, R.E. Lee was put in charge of the defense of Richmond. No one in the South expected the battle to be fought around Richmond, so it was considered a lousy assignment. Nevertheless, Lee drove the men to build fortifications. They called him "Granny Lee," because he seemed to be always worrying about inconsequentials.

With Pickett's Charge, the rifleman phalanx showed its essential weakness in the age of rifles, though most military planners did not see it yet.

The fortifications around Richmond were essential at the end of the Civil War and were virtually impregnable. Lee held on until his food ran out, then made a dash for supplies and was chased down at Appomattox.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Selous
and actually ... i have a theory on modern day evolution, i think all the noble and honourable traits of the human race are being wiped out,

Read the Bible. People haven't changed. They've been murderous, cruel, greedy, hateful, gluttoness, spiritual and loving since the beginning of humanity. The incontrovertible fact in evolution theory is extinction of species. Species do not usually evolve, they die. Specifically, humans are "universal organisms." We can fit most any niche.

(Besides, sexual selection always keeps up the quality of the genes. )