Drinking the Slavery Cool-Aid

cfacosta

Praetorian
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
103
I have noticed that whipping has become increasingly popular and it has reached the point that many people seem to believe that slavery should be an automatic civic selection. Voices in opposition seem to have been drowned out in what I believe to be an overstatement, or perhaps misunderstanding, of the pros and cons (and yes, there are cons) to the use of whipping. Though I do not pretend to be an expert on the subject, and welcome friendly discussion/criticism, my experience has shown that slavery is often not the best choice. My personal preference is the oft disparaged caste system and, if I have time, I will go into why. For now, here is my analysis of how slavery actually affects the game.

Initial Comparison - Ideal Steady State Hammers

The initial rules are simple. We will look at a steady state comparison of two cities. The size of the cities is irrelevant, as is the happiness cap, the terrain, the other workers in the city, and the growth time. All we do is look at the possible use of the last citizen to be born. The options are obvious, so none of this should be new. You either whip the citizen into 30 hammers, or you put him to work in the field. The field work can be conducted on either a mined grass hill or mined plains hill. The two scenarios are summarized in the following production schedule.

Turn SL GH PH
0-------0------0------0
1------30------3-----4
2------30------6-----8
3------30------9-----12
4------30-----12-----16
5------30-----15-----20
6------30-----18-----24
7------30-----21-----28
8------30-----24-----32
9------30-----27-----36
10----30-----30-----40
11----60-----33-----44
12----60-----36-----48
13----60-----39-----52
14----60-----42-----56
15----60-----45-----60
16----60-----48-----64
17----60-----51-----68
18----60-----54-----72
19----60-----57-----76
20----60-----60-----80
21----90-----63-----84
22----90-----66-----88
23----90-----69-----92
24----90-----72-----96
25----90-----75-----100
26----90-----78-----104
27----90-----81-----108
28----90-----84-----112
29----90-----87-----116
30----90-----90-----120
First 10 Turns
AHT--300---165----220
First 20 Turns
AHT--900---630----840
First 30 Turns
AHT-1800--1395--1860

There are a few things that need to be noted from this. The most important is that under no circumstances does whipping produce extra hammers. I will discuss non ideal steady state comparisons later. For the ideal steady state scenario, a mined grassland hill produces the same number of hammers as a single 10 turn whipping cycle. The benefit of whipping in this case is that all the hammers for a given 10 turn cycle are given up front. This means that the player will have had more hammers worth of stuff lying around for a longer time. I have coined the term Accumulated Hammer Turns (AHT), which is just the accumulated hammers a city has produced by a given turn, integrated over all turns of interest. You see that on turn 30, both the whipping cycle city and the mined grassland hill city have produced a total of 90 hammers. The whipping cycle city, however, has had 1800 AHT worth of stuff working for him, while the mined grassland hill city has only had 1395 AHT worth. This is the benefit of slavery, not faster building or more hammers. Note that as the integrated time increases from turn 10 to turn 30, the relative benefit of slavery decreases. Also note that if a mined plains hill is available, by turn 30 the whipping cycle city has produced less raw hammers and has less AHT worth of material. Whipping is not always best.

Further Comparison - “Yea but…..”

Alright, the above comparison was an ideal steady state comparison. So now we need to include the various factors that affect the comparison. I will use numbers whenever possible, but they will be for specific situations. The main point should be if a given specific situation is generally applicable or if it is conservative enough to be useful. The main factors that modify the ideal steady state comparison are available terrain, health caps, growth speed, and happiness caps.

The first main factor that needs discussion is terrain. The question here is whether the non slavery city has an available hill to work. If a city does not have hills or other 3 hammer tiles to work, then slavery is clearly beneficial in total hammers as well as AHT worth. Otherwise, the above hammer schedule applies on a per citizen basis.

The second factor, the health cap, is also a limiting factor for the non slavery city. While whipping breaks even on happiness because it yields -1 crowded unhappiness and +1 cruel oppression unhappiness, it does not have a similar balance with health. The unhealthiness caused by crowding goes down by one and is not replaces by anything else. This means that for a given whipping cycle, the comparative non slavery city will have 1 more unhealthiness. This equals a net effect of 1 less food production. Now, in the mined grassland hill scenario, this is made up with the 1 extra food produced from the grassland hill tile. In the mined grassland hill scenario, this represents a deficit that must be paid for some other way. So, taking both hammers and food into consideration, the most fair comparison is between the whipping cycle city and the mined grassland hill city. The hammer production schedule still applies.

The growth speed is effectively a limitation on the whipping cycle city. Make no mistake, the non slavery city is not “paying food” to work its tile. The whole issue is whether to use food to make hammers through a mine or to use it to produce hammers through population. A fair comparison assumes that a whipping city only has a 2 food per whipping cycle advantage over the non slavery city. If one has food resources, then the other has them as well. If the whipping cycle city is retooled for max growth, then the non slavery city should be retooled for max growth as well. The only differences should be in the use of the citizens being whipped. In these cases, the hammer production schedule applies.

So, that said, the real importance of growth speed is in how many whipping cycles can be run at once without altering your city size. If you can only grow 1 pop in 10 turns, then you can only whip once every ten turns without starting to see a decline in city size. If you can grow 5 pop in 10 turns, and you have enough happiness to support it, you can run 5 whipping cycles at a time without seeing your city size decrease. This is important because, together with the happiness, it creates an upper limit on the use of whipping in a given city.

The final factor is the already mentioned happiness cap. This affects a given whipping cycle and a worked tile in the same way. As mentioned, you either get crowding unhappiness or cruel oppression unhappiness. The key here, though, is that cities will have a base of 3 happiness of Emperor. So the number of whipping cycles that can be run will be low. This means it is easy to find city sites that can work hills instead of whipping. Most cities will be able to have 2 or three hills in range.

Actual Mechanics Comparison - How things really work

The reality of civ is one where difficulty makes early happiness caps around 5-7, the health cap will be around 7, a city can easily have 2-3 hills, and most cities will only have 2 food resources. These numbers can be disputed, but they are more or less on target and their accuracy does not affect the analysis much. If you have a city with a +4 and a +3 food resource tile, then you can achieve +9 food growth at size 2. This will allow you to grow/whip 2.5 times in 10 turns. So, over 20 turns, the effective size of your city is +2 crowded unhappiness and +3 cruel oppression unhappiness.
A non slavery city will work the same +9 food tiles but will work a mined grassland hill when it gets to size 3 (instead of whipping back to size 2). This city will now be at +8 food growth and will be producing hammers according to the schedule above. As you can see, it’s growth is not significantly slower than the whipping city. As the whipping city grows to its equilibrium 2.5 whipping cycles, the non-slavery city can keep up with the required growth rate while losing at most a few turn. This means that, again, slavery is not gaining you hammers, just AHT worth.
The tradeoff comes when at the point where the whipping cycle city has reached equilibrium. It is an effective size (unhappiness-wise) of 5. It must produce +9 food in order to keep the whipping going. The non-slavery city, however, has reached size 5 with 3 mined grassland hills and is still at +6 food. The three mined grassland hills are already keeping total hammer production even with the whipping cycle city, so the extra 6 food is no longer needed. The non-slavery city can now change one of its food resource squares to working another hill, if available, or turn it into a specialist. There is no significant time loss since growth for working hills keeps pace with growth for whipping. It is once equilibrium is reached that the non-slavery city can begin leveraging additional production. Once again, slavery does not get you more hammers…in practice it gets you less. What is does do is give you, in effect, a paycheck advance.
This scenario holds true even if you have enough food to run more whipping cycles at a time since happiness caps affect both cities in the exact same way. The difference comes when the non-slavery city becomes health limited or cannot find hills to work. At this point whipping does have an advantage. Please note, however, that this only starts to happen when you are running 3 or 4 whipping cycles at a time. This requires enough food to grow 3 or 4 times in ten turns (basically you must have a granary) and a happiness cap that allows for the larger effective city size. On average, whipping in smaller cities with low happiness caps will not cause the comparison non-slavery city to see any limitations.

Conclusions - What’s the deal?

In the end, the choice of using slavery is more difficult than people make it out to be. Terrain, growth rates, and happiness caps must be taken into consideration. The majority of situations will see a non-slavery city producing more than a comparable size whipping city once both reach equilibrium. In the end, what slavery gets you is a greater (though diminishing over time) AHT worth. Slavery will only lead in total hammer production when you are running enough whipping cycles to outstrip hill supply. If hills are scarce and you can find several food resources per city, Slavery will not only get you your paycheck advance, but it will outproduce as well. However, if your happiness caps are low (such as on higher difficulties) and/or there are many available hills, slavery is not the panacea it is often advertised as. The sacrificing of specialist commerce combined with the opportunity cost of other civics in the category can easily make it the wrong choice.
 
Well that depends on where you produce your workers from. I tend to produce workers in already established cities and send them with attack/settling parties. The biggest worker whipping advantage is if workers are produced locally, but for other reasons I do not believe that is the best approach.
Now, when the game first starts and you get bronze working as your first (or second) tech, whipping is very effective. After all, the AHT benefit is greatest early on anyways. My whole point stems from a post I saw comparing CE and SE. One of the main points was that SE uses slavery better and is thus superior to the CE running caste system (and yes, it was disputed that a CE has to run caste system). But anyways, tt is almost assumed that whipping is the automatic choice at any point in the game. I think this is a flawed position...as I mentioned, I use slavery to rush some early troops and workers and switch to caste system for war and the rest of the game.
 
Where is the accounting for timeliness and emergency situations?

When one looks at it exclusively from a production point of view, they are neglecting a major component in trying to determine true value.
 
I agree that whipping is being over used. I think it's the quick fix, instantaneous gratification that drives everyone to whip. I think whipping must be used, situationally.

At high levels, it is important to get a settler quickly. The AI settles very quickly and will beat you to the choice spot. In fact, whipping a settler may loose you 2 pop and unhapiness for 10t. But you get an early city...which works 2 tiles. Of course, you could wait 10t (approx.) and get the settler without any penalties.

Also, you may need to time a production so you can start a wonder ASAP...to beat the AI.

The basic advantage is speed. Do I need settler (or whatever) now? What is the risk?

Of couse there are a couple of bugs that make whipping advantageous (especially the wonder bug), but those should be outside of this discussion.
 
Slavery isn't really better if you only whip one pop at a time. The hammer advantage of slavery comes from growing one unhappy citizen (past the non-whipped cap) and whipping two population for 60 hammers. The production bonus comes from converting food you otherwise wouldn't need due to the happiness cap into production. In high food cities, you can trade 10 turns of working the plains hill into 60 hammers rather than 40. The difference isn't quite this large since its very hard to time queues and growth to do a two pop whip every ten turns.

Low production, high food cities are good for 2 pop whips in the early game. It allows a low hammer, high food city to build two axes with a whip (1+1 from overflow) every ten turns if you want to axe rush. As cities get larger the whip becomes less effective. If you can't grow back whipped population within 10 turns or you want more flexibility for the last citizen then whipping starts to lose. If you don't need production you can run a specialist or work a cottage with the last citizen you didn't lose for ten turns by whipping. Also, cities needs evolve. Whipping to finish a marketplace or bank in a commerce city is a very different calculation (lost commerce tiles vs bonus from worked tiles).

So, I would say slavery can be effective as a hammer multiplier in the early game. It lets you found cities in good cottaging sites and coastal areas and still get good production. It certainly doesn't work in every situation. With high happiness levels, you can't grow many cities to near their potential size and whip. With low happiniess levels, some cities can work only tiles with resource bonuses which are often better over a whip cycle than whipping
 
There are several honker omissions in your analysis:
1) Where's the granary? Enslavers always build granaries. Actually, now that I look at it, you're not considering growth time at all, and that's exactly what's so valuable about slavery.
2) You forgot the food cost of mined plains hills. They are *inferior* to mined grassland from a overall efficiency viewpoint - 2 food for 4 production rather than 1 for 3.
3) How many hills do you have? My starting city frequently has +4 or +5 food - but rarely do I have 4 or 5 grass hills to work. And you certainly will have quite a few cities with very few hills - glancing at my current game about 1/3 of my cities have 2 or less - including most of my commerce cities. It's really painful when your commerce cities can't squeeze out a bank until well into the modern era but without slavery a flatland city basically spends the entire game grinding out basic improvements 1 per 30 turns or worse. With slavery *every* city apart from the worst iceberg trash has respectable production.
 
I have always suspected that the rhetoric of the civic is the cause for much constsernation in many people. They have their emotions triggered by the word itself and forget that we are talking about a game dynamic.

One of the most fascinating manifestations of this consternation is the test for mettle and integrity they come up with in their attempts to rationalize and debunk the notion that the civic of slavery could be a positive and beneficial course to take in the game.

EVERY SINGLE COMPONENT in the game has (multiple) situations in which it can be used to benefit the player. Spending time trying to debunk the use of the slavery civic is time wasted. It has all the markings of a thin veil that only serves to highlight a person's political feelings.

What a strange way to portend humanitarian idealism.




Now, where are my new Nikes?
 
I never said slavery was a bad civic....I even mentioned that I use it during the beginning part of the game. So for my part..."I have always suspected that the {lack of reading people's posts} is the cause for much consternation in many people";) . Jokes aside though, I was just pointing out that slavery has more caveats than people seem to like to admit and any new player is likely to hurt themselves a bit by misusing it. As for direct responses...

I mentioned the food cost of a mined plains when I said that mined grasslands were the most fair direct comparison.

The granary should not make a difference when you compare two cities on even footing. If the slavery city grows faster, so will the non slavery city. In the end the only limitation is if there are enough hills...which brings us to number three.

The number of hills is a limitation, yes...but it is not a direct calculation. The number of hills required to equal slavery hammer production is the same as the number of whipping cycles you can support at any one time plus the number of hills the slavery city happens to be mining. Since higher difficulty happiness caps will be low, it is rare to be able to support more than 3 whipping cycles in the early game. I usually tend to build cities with access to 2-3 hills as a rule of thumb. Of course, this is personal style and as I already mentioned, you should take this into consideration when determining if slavery is right for you.

And yes, slavery is good for the "oh crap" scenarios where you need to get something fast. That is just another part of the rubric. All i am saying is that people should not automatically assume slavery is the right choice. It is not an "at least some bonus is better than none" scenario. Using the whip will sometimes hurt you in the long run...I am just trying to point that out.
 
Ah, now I understand your mistake. Your idea is to use the pop to produce hammer rather than sack him off immediately. Your mistake is that slavery *also* has a way to use that extra guy for production - stick him on a farm and then use the population produced by that extra farm for production. Work out the cost-benefit for that and you'll find slavery comes out ahead with a granary unless the city is fairly large.

cfacosta said:
The number of hills is a limitation, yes...but it is not a direct calculation. The number of hills required to equal slavery hammer production is the same as the number of whipping cycles you can support at any one time plus the number of hills the slavery city happens to be mining. Since higher difficulty happiness caps will be low, it is rare to be able to support more than 3 whipping cycles in the early game. I usually tend to build cities with access to 2-3 hills as a rule of thumb.

Before I modded slavery, I was usually running a food surplus of 4 or so per turn and whipping 2 citizens every 10 turns. Because that's not actually so much food, I was usually working all available hills as well. I don't know what you mean by "early game" but I was usually doing more like 20-40 pop cycles per city in the first 200 turns (remember, double since it's coming in twos) and when I was on the low end it's because I'm a) peaceful and b) lazy. That's WAAAAY more than 3 cycles.

We all like to have some hills around - but sometimes, they just aren't there, period. I always have several flatland/fisher cities unless I'm on the Highland map. What do you do with flatlands - let the AI have them?

Incidentally, I modded slavery to provide a 3 hammer specialist. This is worse than slavery under most circumstances if there's a granary (giving up the instabuild, too) and inferior to any kind of improved hill. Nonetheless, it's an amazingly handy civic and is still easily a match for caste system. It's invaluable for flatlands and wonder races, and very handy for warfare. That just hints at how gross the unmodded slavery is, if you're willing to put up with the micro.
 
A more subtle issue is that relying on a civic like slavery can lead to bad game habits. It's one thing to whip out a couple of early buildings (e.g. granary and library), and a different one entirely to insist that it's the best choice for the entire game. I'm a big fan of city specialization - I make most of my beakers in a science city, most of my armies in one or two dedicated hammer sites, and so on. Relying on the whip can lead to one-size-fits-all approaches. It also doesn't mesh well with tech-heavy paths (I mostly do Space Race right now - it's the only VC that the AI is actually competing for!)
Used early - fine. Always the best, all of the time: silly. I don't need Banks, Markets, etc. for a Space win, as an example, nor do I need armies. I need beakers and big cities that can gear up for spaceship parts...
 
curtadams said:
Ah, now I understand your mistake. Your idea is to use the pop to produce hammer rather than sack him off immediately. Your mistake is that slavery *also* has a way to use that extra guy for production - stick him on a farm and then use the population produced by that extra farm for production. Work out the cost-benefit for that and you'll find slavery comes out ahead with a granary unless the city is fairly large.



Before I modded slavery, I was usually running a food surplus of 4 or so per turn and whipping 2 citizens every 10 turns. Because that's not actually so much food, I was usually working all available hills as well. I don't know what you mean by "early game" but I was usually doing more like 20-40 pop cycles per city in the first 200 turns (remember, double since it's coming in twos) and when I was on the low end it's because I'm a) peaceful and b) lazy. That's WAAAAY more than 3 cycles.

We all like to have some hills around - but sometimes, they just aren't there, period. I always have several flatland/fisher cities unless I'm on the Highland map. What do you do with flatlands - let the AI have them?

Incidentally, I modded slavery to provide a 3 hammer specialist. This is worse than slavery under most circumstances if there's a granary (giving up the instabuild, too) and inferior to any kind of improved hill. Nonetheless, it's an amazingly handy civic and is still easily a match for caste system. It's invaluable for flatlands and wonder races, and very handy for warfare. That just hints at how gross the unmodded slavery is, if you're willing to put up with the micro.

You raise some interesting points, and I'd respond with the virtues of specialized cities. I really began to be able to do well in Civ4 when I broke from the mold of trying to xerox a universal city model across the map and fill every vacant spot. Not colonizing low-value sites keeps my maintenance low; that big flatland city is costing you a bundle. This expense is routinely ignored in hammer calculations. By contrast, I can get a nice multiplier effect (especially with national wonders) by having a handful of cities that are *good* at hammer production - food specials to grow fast, plenty of hills to switch to for early production, forges, etc. By not carrying the maintenance overhead of low value cities I can research faster. This benefits most victory condition strategies. Late game I can use watermills, lumbermills, and (with state property) workshops. As far as buildings are concerned: I also benefited a lot from realizing that there were some I almost never had to build (banks, markets) and others that I only had to build in some places (groceries and aqueducts for health). The only truly universal buildings are a handful of basic ones - granaries, forges, courthouses, and usually libraries.

A tactic that is useful in some circumstances is being presented as the best overall choice - that's my quarrel with it.
 
ohioastronomy said:
You raise some interesting points, and I'd respond with the virtues of specialized cities. I really began to be able to do well in Civ4 when I broke from the mold of trying to xerox a universal city model across the map and fill every vacant spot. Not colonizing low-value sites keeps my maintenance low; that big flatland city is costing you a bundle. This expense is routinely ignored in hammer calculations. By contrast, I can get a nice multiplier effect (especially with national wonders) by having a handful of cities that are *good* at hammer production - food specials to grow fast, plenty of hills to switch to for early production, forges, etc. By not carrying the maintenance overhead of low value cities I can research faster. This benefits most victory condition strategies. Late game I can use watermills, lumbermills, and (with state property) workshops. As far as buildings are concerned: I also benefited a lot from realizing that there were some I almost never had to build (banks, markets) and others that I only had to build in some places (groceries and aqueducts for health). The only truly universal buildings are a handful of basic ones - granaries, forges, courthouses, and usually libraries.

A tactic that is useful in some circumstances is being presented as the best overall choice - that's my quarrel with it.

There are low value cities, but no large city is ever low value. Even a 12 pop fishing village produces 24 commerce, times 1.5 for basic improvements, for 36. A land city is normally at least twice that value. I don't think upkeep is every anything near that. Of course there's a big startup overhead which isn't so easy to analyze but I think any decent city founded while there's still room will be a net benefit over the course of the game barring early conquest ends.

Slavery isn't the be-all and end-all of the game, but for most of the competitive game it's the best labor civic. Serfdom is nearly useless IMO - workers are cheap by the time it comes online. There are circumstances where Caste Society is better (Angkor Wat, culture wars), but I don't encounter them often. So it's really the way to go all the way up to Emancipation and sometimes even then. With a CE I generally switch to Universal Suffrage then but if I'm more specialists I'll generally stay with slavery until almost all my cities are developed.

Because of the way slavery is geared up in the basic game it's actually a good idea to switch back and forth with Caste Society if you're Spiritual. That's kind of an exploit, though.
 
cfacosta said:
The reality of civ is one where difficulty makes early happiness caps around 5-7, the health cap will be around 7, a city can easily have 2-3 hills, and most cities will only have 2 food resources. These numbers can be disputed, but they are more or less on target and their accuracy does not affect the analysis much. If you have a city with a +4 and a +3 food resource tile, then you can achieve +9 food growth at size 2. This will allow you to grow/whip 2.5 times in 10 turns. So, over 20 turns, the effective size of your city is +2 crowded unhappiness and +3 cruel oppression unhappiness.
A non slavery city will work the same +9 food tiles but will work a mined grassland hill when it gets to size 3 (instead of whipping back to size 2). This city will now be at +8 food growth and will be producing hammers according to the schedule above. As you can see, it’s growth is not significantly slower than the whipping city. As the whipping city grows to its equilibrium 2.5 whipping cycles, the non-slavery city can keep up with the required growth rate while losing at most a few turn. This means that, again, slavery is not gaining you hammers, just AHT worth.
The tradeoff comes when at the point where the whipping cycle city has reached equilibrium. It is an effective size (unhappiness-wise) of 5. It must produce +9 food in order to keep the whipping going. The non-slavery city, however, has reached size 5 with 3 mined grassland hills and is still at +6 food. The three mined grassland hills are already keeping total hammer production even with the whipping cycle city, so the extra 6 food is no longer needed. The non-slavery city can now change one of its food resource squares to working another hill, if available, or turn it into a specialist. There is no significant time loss since growth for working hills keeps pace with growth for whipping. It is once equilibrium is reached that the non-slavery city can begin leveraging additional production. Once again, slavery does not get you more hammers…in practice it gets you less. What is does do is give you, in effect, a paycheck advance.

I can guarantee that slavery will allow you to more effectively utilize a 9 food surplus than 3-4 grassland hills ever would.

EDIT: And, to provide something slightly constructive... Your model of slavery is incorrect. You assume a model wherein you always whip a marginal citizen to immediately yield 30 hammers and 10 turns of whip unhappiness. The reality is a model where you whip as many citizens as you can at once, yielding 30*X hammers and still only get 10 turns of whip unhappiness. Also, whip unhappiness is drastically more pronounced if you whip more frequently than once every 10 turns, as the timer on the second whip's unhappiness doesn't start counting till the previous one expires. The result is: You'll spend 1 or more turns at 2 unhappiness followed by a full 10 turns at 1 unhappiness.
 
Perhaps the whip is overused, but you should have the option to whip things when you need them and being able to switch to military at the drop of the hat...
 
Gnarfflinger said:
Perhaps the whip is overused, but you should have the option to whip things when you need them and being able to switch to military at the drop of the hat...

I think most ppl underuse the whip. scared to buildup unhappiness. there are probably exceptions though.
 
Lmtoops said:
I agree that whipping is being over used. I think it's the quick fix, instantaneous gratification that drives everyone to whip. I think whipping must be used, situationally.

I think is the old thinking of "if it worked in THAT situation, it works in ALL".

I have read most of the threads on slavery vs non slavery, and find it to be highly situational. And I also find slavery to be less usefull than has been touted by some.

It is good for emergency builds, or builds where you are in a race with another civ, such as for a wonder, but outside of those I find that overusing it is worst than not using it at all. It does have advantages - but overuse can also slow growth, which can be important if you need to churn out settlers for a land grab. It also depends somewhat on the map and terrain, some is better than others.

Used correctlly, it can be very useful, used indiscriminately it can get messy....

I have kind of a saved test game I use to perfect or try various strategies, so that base conditions always are the same (Roosevelt, huge continents).

Today I played it with and without whipping, and at 0 AD the one without slavery was ahead by about 50 points. In another different game, whipping was ahead by about 35 at 0 AD. Which shows me that while slavery can be useful, it is not the end-all strategy.
 
Wlauzon said:
Today I played it with and without whipping, and at 0 AD the one without slavery was ahead by about 50 points. In another different game, whipping was ahead by about 35 at 0 AD. Which shows me that while slavery can be useful, it is not the end-all strategy.

It's equally consistent that you just didn't do it right. It's my observation that most people don't use Slavery very well. It's complicated and counterintuitive in many ways. So it's very possible for the average player to hear, "Slavery is great", try using it, make various mistakes, and derive no benefit or even a net cost. Yet it's still very powerful when used carefully.
 
Well... the ultimate sustainable limit on slavery is 30 :hammers: per turn (plus whatever you gain by working the tiles), because you can't regrow population any faster than that. This is the math behind the Globe Theater as a key military production wonder - you start whipping two population every other turn.

You can mimic this during certain phases of the game with judicious use of the culture slider, and any time you whip a happiness building it is essentially a freebie.


But one issue I think needs to be addressed is that slavery is a civic - a choice that you make for its implications across your civ as a whole. And except during particular periods, most of your civ is focussed on commerce/research/gold, rather than on hammers. In a production center you may prefer 10 * N hammers rather than 10 * (N-1) hammers + whip, but in a commerce center you are looking at different math. My middle games tend to have more commerce centers than production centers, so that's where the bang for the buck appears.

Note that the tile that you don't work (assuming you are up against the happy cap) is a marginal tile, so a 1/N loss of production is worst case (delta some slop from the turns where the population has to regrow).

If you have a power food tile (Farmed Corn on a river) you really want to be working it all the time. You can often convert the surplus food to production (by working plains or hills instead of grasslands). Or you can whip it away. Or run specialists, if you have enough slots. Or just keep an angry citizen or two handy in case the happy cap lifts.

I think it needs a more detailed analysis than this one to know what situations call for each of these options.
 
DaviddesJ said:
It's equally consistent that you just didn't do it right. It's my observation that most people don't use Slavery very well. It's complicated and counterintuitive in many ways. So it's very possible for the average player to hear, "Slavery is great", try using it, make various mistakes, and derive no benefit or even a net cost. Yet it's still very powerful when used carefully.

Can you articulate these mistakes? I wonder if I am making them.
 
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