D'tesh Events (Possible bug)

[Shinzen]

So I've been playing the D'tesh a lot recently and I'm enjoying it immensely. However I've noticed a few weird this vis a vis D'tesh and events.

I seem to get a crazy amount of Disease events that reduce population in my cities, I got 2 within 10 turns of each other twice in one game. Besides the fact that the D'tesh should have an option like the Scions to be immune to those, it's kind of annoying D'tesh and their mindless zombie slaves aren't.

Also, Slave Escapes. I've twice now had one of my STARTING slaves escape on turn two as he was trying to get to my city location. D'tesh have a slow startup already and this makes it even more difficult.

As a side note, Maybe consider buffing Lord D'tesh (the leader not the Hero unit) start. I found it near impossible to do anything productive with him before Necromancy and it takes forever to get there, wheres Thanatos can tech to Hunters and massacre people to get enough slaves to fuel a rush up easy. I'm not sure how to balance it, but Thanatos is just infinitely better for me right now.

 

[Valkrionn]

So I've been playing the D'tesh a lot recently and I'm enjoying it immensely. However I've noticed a few weird this vis a vis D'tesh and events.

I seem to get a crazy amount of Disease events that reduce population in my cities, I got 2 within 10 turns of each other twice in one game. Besides the fact that the D'tesh should have an option like the Scions to be immune to those, it's kind of annoying D'tesh and their mindless zombie slaves aren't.

Also, Slave Escapes. I've twice now had one of my STARTING slaves escape on turn two as he was trying to get to my city location. D'tesh have a slow startup already and this makes it even more difficult.

Yes, I need to add some event choices for the D'tesh. I'm actually working on them at the moment, so that's something I'm going to address.

As a side note, Maybe consider buffing Lord D'tesh (the leader not the Hero unit) start. I found it near impossible to do anything productive with him before Necromancy and it takes forever to get there, wheres Thanatos can tech to Hunters and massacre people to get enough slaves to fuel a rush up easy. I'm not sure how to balance it, but Thanatos is just infinitely better for me right now.

Well, D'tesh will be made more competitive due to three things; Boost to Arcane trait (affects all Arcane leaders, of course, but D'tesh will particularly enjoy it), boost (and nerf... Think it's a net positive though, just a different style) to the Arcane units for D'tesh, massive boost to Arcane techs for all D'teshi leaders, and nerf to the Recon units.

May as well go ahead and describe the changes, most are available in the Download thread anyway.

Currently Implemented

• D'tesh are now subject to a city cap
  • Cap has been tested, method exposed to python. Slaves may now only add to the city if the current population level is below the cap... Even trying to add a stack at once does not work, fills the city to the cap and the rest just sit there. Cap is displayed when you mouse over the city.
  • Civ trait is now Undying; Same as fallow, with addition of an initial cap of 6 population.
  • All D'teshi UB's influence cap.
    • Palace - +12
    • Eternal Council - +2
    • Temple of D'tesh - +2
    • Binding Stones - +4
    • Halls of D'tesh - +6
    • Morgue - +2
    • Tower of D'tesh (New) - +12
  • New building, Tower of D'tesh. Not technically new, brought back from one of the earliest versions of the civ.
    • Requires Arcane Lore
    • 250
    • Changes city radius to +3 (Just like the palace; This allows all your cities to eventually reach that size, which helps when you are limited in number of cities)
    • +1% with each Ash.
    • +12 City Pop Cap.
• D'tesh are now limited in number of cities
  • New unit, Vessel of D'tesh.
    • Replaces Settler
    • 180
    • Double Production for Arcane leaders (instead of Expansive)
    • Limited to 4
    • Cities count towards the limit
      
      Can't actually do a true UU, as it needs it's own unitclass in order to be limited; Only real Settler you'll get is the first one, though, like with the Scions.
• Improvement Changes
  • Already announced, but some changes here as well.
  • D'tesh are now limited in what improvements are available... Total of 5. All have unique art.
  • Pyre - As is, just new art.
  • Crypt - As is (for now), just new art.
  • Corrupted Pasture - As is, just new art.
  • Catacombs - Mine replacement. Just new art for now, no unique effects. May get the same thing Crypts are getting.
  • Mausoleum - Fort replacement. Three levels (Lesser/ /Greater). Only listing stats that change from the standard fort line, here.
    • Basically, easier to control territory with forts but less defensible. Sacrifice units to your Fort Commanders ASAP.
    • Lesser Mausoleum
      • Upgrade time reduced to 10, from 20.
      • All defensive bonuses removed.
      • Cultural Control Range increased to 1
    • Mausoleum
      • Upgrade time reduced to 20, from 40.
      • Defense modifier reduced to 10, from 25.
      • Defense modifier of 5 up to 1 tile away, decreased from 10 up to 2 tiles away.
      • Cultural Control Range increased to 2.
      • Cultural Control Strength and Center Bonus increased to 2.
    • Greater Mausoleum
      • Upgrade time reduced to 30, from 60.
      • Defense modifier reduced to 20, from 40.
      • Defense modifier of 10 up to 2 tile away, decreased from 15 up to 3 tiles away.
      • Cultural Control Range increased to 3.
      • Cultural Control Strength and Center Bonus increased to 4, from 2.
  • May or may not get a Pyre Barge.

Updated

• Undying decreases GPP by 1/2.
• Capturing a city reduces it's pop by 1/3.
• New "Funeral Barge" Work Boat UU.
  • Can build Pyre
• New "Pyre" improvement
  • Buildable on Kelp/Kelp Forest
  • Buildable on any organic resource (all sea resources)
  • Removes Kelp/Kelp Forest/Reefs when built
  • Slightly different art from the land version, same name.
• Razing a city generates a new Vessel unit.

Update 2

• D'teshi Commanders (Fort Commander UU) now have access to the Corrupt Fort spell.
  • May be cast in any fort, other than the D'teshi unique line.
  • Converts the improvement to a Lesser Mausoleum, fort equivalent for the D'tesh.
  • Basically, cheap way for me to accommodate the "Field Fortifications" spell, without a load of new promotions. As a side benefit, you can convert captured forts as well.
• Unit line changes
  • Recon
    • Will no longer be permanently invisible. There will be a period after attacking where they are visible; Under Thanatos, this will be 1 turn. Otherwise, 3.
    • Handled via a total of 3 new promotions; Very lightweight system.
  • Arcane
    • No D'teshi arcane unit gains free xp, instead they gain higher attack strength.
      • This is to encourage using them as your attacking force; Keeping them at home is now useless.
    • Specific Unit Stats
      • Binder - 3, +2 Death Combat
      • Chosen - 4, +2 Death Combat, +1 Death Affinity
      • Council of Four - 5, +3 Death Combat, +1 Death Affinity, +1 Shadow Affinity
    • Special for D'tesh
      • When playing D'tesh, arcane units gain the "Necromantically Empowered" promotion. This has no direct benefits; Instead, it allows the unit to cast the "Dark Empowerment" spell.
      • Dark Empowerment
        • Requires a Melee unit in the stack
        • Caster may not have the "Dark Empowerment" promotion
        • Kills the weakest Melee unit in the stack (actual combat strength, and weighted by certain promos; Function by Odalrick, been in for a while, had not been used. Modified it to be able to search for a specific unitcombat)
        • Caster gains the "Dark Empowerment" promotion
      • Dark Empowerment (Promotion)
        • +100% xp from combat
        • +1 xp from combat
        • +25% Attack Strength (Defense unaffected)
        • Wears off in 10 turns

Update 3

• Watcher
  • Disciple Unitcombat
    • This is TEMPORARY. Could not use Melee due to changes to the Arcane line, did not want to use archer, and Disciple actually fits. Just not as well as what it will be, after the full unitpass (full meaning full mod, not single civ). The D'tesh simply need these units now, so I added them where I could.
  • 1/3 , +1 Death Combat
  • 1
  • 25
  • +25% City Defense
  • 20% chance to generate a Slave
  • D'tesh now start with one of these, rather than a warrior.
  • Yes, the Watcher is currently the worker UU... That UU has been gone for quite some time in the team version, though, and the name fits. Worker is now handled using an autoacquired promotions... Worker UU glut is the main reason promotionbuilds were added.
• Sentinel
  • Disciple Unitcombat
  • 2/4 , +1 Death Combat
  • 1
  • 60
  • +25% City Defense
  • +25% chance to generate a Slave
  • Requires Bronze Working
  • Requires Barracks
• Death's Head
  • Disciple Unitcombat
  • 4/6 , +1 Death Combat, +1 Death Affinity
  • 1
  • 140
  • +25% City Defense
  • +30% chance to generate a Slave
  • Does not obsolete
  • Requires Iron Working
  • Requires Barracks
• Hand of D'tesh
  • Disciple Unitcombat
  • National Unit (4 Allowed)
  • 10/12 , +2 Death Combat, +2 Death Affinity
    • This may be toned down... However, this tech line atm has very little to offer the D'tesh (no buildings that increase pop limit), and you can only have 4. Will wait for feedback from testers before nerfing it.
  • 1
  • 260
  • +25% City Defense
  • 40% chance to generate a Slave
  • Requires Mithril Working
  • Requires Weaponsmith
• Vanedis
  • Art - http://udoncrew.deviantart.com/art/Acererak-75386090
  • Defender/Spiritual
  • Lore
    • D'tesh's oldest friend, from before he found the Opalus Mortus.
    • Is a former Amurite as a result (as most of the stronger D'teshi mages are)
    • Is the leader of the strongest Council of Four
  • Special
    • Vanedis focuses on the new unitline, same way Thanatos focuses on Recon and D'tesh on Arcane.
    • At level 5, these units are able to choose from 3 formations; These are free, and can be swapped at any time.
    • These promotions are named for the other members of Vanedis' council.
    • Fist of Orn
      • +50% City Attack
      • -25% City Defense
      • -1 Defense Strength
    • Shield of Ramne
      • +2 Defense Strength
      • -2 Attack Strength
    • Grasp of Karn
      • +15% chance to generate a Slave
      • -10% Strength
  • In-Game Representation
    • Both D'tesh and Thanatos are represented in game, as heroes. I don't think Vanedis should be an actual hero.
    • If he is in game, I think he'd just be the first arcane unit you train. Grant Battle-Hardened to him, so it's a mini-hero. Otherwise, nothing special.

Final Update

• New "Defile Crypt" spell.
  • Can be cast by any Arcane unit.
  • Can only be cast in your own borders, within the workable radius of a city. Spamming them around forts won't work.
  • Converts the improvement to a 'Defiled Crypt'
    • Permanent, cannot be razed.
    • Harvests all resources the standard Crypt does, but does NOT grant bonus yields to the resource.
    • Grants no innate yields.
    • Basically, yield on the plot is reduced to that of the base terrain and resource. Improvement adds nothing.
  • Spawns a Slave unit.
  • This spell is meant to be an absolute last resort, and is very costly as a result.
• New unit art, courtesy Tesb.
  • Watcher - 5 skeletal spearmen.
  • Sentinel - 4 skeletal spearmen, with flags.
  • Death's Head - 3 skeletal spearmen, with flags and shields. Central unit has his shield on his arm, others are on their backs.
  • Hand of D'tesh - 2 undead spearmen, far better armor/weaponry/bodily preservation.
  • All have unique button art.
• D'teshi Affinity
  • This effect is acquired automatically by all non-civilian D'teshi Units. Dropped the 'tier2' prereq.
  • Death Mana
    • +10% strength
  • Shadow Mana
    • +1 First Strike Chance
    • Every 5 grants one standard First Strike
  • Entropy Mana
    • Chance after combat to temporarily create Wastelands
      • Chance equal to (NumEntropy * 5), effects both your own plot and the enemy's plot.
      • Effect lasts 10 turns on your plot, 5 on the enemy's.
  • Infused Ash
    • +1% chance to generate a Slave.
    • Low effect, but if doing it anyway I'd like to have Ash be useful beyond just a commerce boost for the city.

 

[Cyrusfan]

I'm a little confused, is the Will of D'Tesh the way you normally produce Vessels, or is it to get more than the base four? If the latter, it probably needs to be expensive enough that it's a nontrivial build in a maxed out capitol.

If that's a hard cap of 5 cities (including the capital produced by the settler) I'm worried that they might suffer the same weakness as Kuriotates in the long term. Worse, that means you have to raze every city you take. Which runs up the Armageddon counter and provides a nasty surprise when the horsemen start popping up. I think they have death immunity or something because all my units' combat odds against them were really bad.

Or do you mean we can capture to our heart's content in addition to 5 cities built on our own?

 

[Valkrionn]

I'm a little confused, is the Will of D'Tesh the way you normally produce Vessels, or is it to get more than the base four? If the latter, it probably needs to be expensive enough that it's a nontrivial build in a maxed out capitol.

Will of D'tesh allows you to produce EXTRA vessels, past the base four. Hence the higher cost, project status (meaning I can have it require a cooldown period; Thinking 50 turns or so), and the population reduction that building it causes.

Not sure if it will be a global reduction or a reduction in just the one city, though. Leaning towards the latter.

If that's a hard cap of 5 cities (including the capital produced by the settler) I'm worried that they might suffer the same weakness as Kuriotates in the long term. Worse, that means you have to raze every city you take. Which runs up the Armageddon counter and provides a nasty surprise when the horsemen start popping up. I think they have death immunity or something because all my units' combat odds against them were really bad.

Actually, due to the way it works, they have no hard cap on cities. They can just only ever build 3 Vessels normally.

Yes, I said three. Cities count towards the limit, so once the initial settler creates the Capital, you already have one notch towards the total of 4.

You can keep any cities you conquer, or raze them and relocate them. You aren't forced to raze. Unlike with the Kurios, cities that you take past your 'limit' do not become settlements. Main reason I implemented it in this manner, honestly.

Or do you mean we can capture to our heart's content in addition to 5 cities built on our own?

Capture as many as you want, but you can only ever build 4 cities without either A) Conquering/Razing or B)Ritual.

If you take a city before you've maxed out your Vessels, you're out of luck. New city will count towards the limit, it doesn't discriminate. It's a very small bit of code.

 

[Valkrionn]

Updated the post with the Crypt changes... Forgot to include them.

 

[Shinzen]

So, up to 4 Cities with a max cap of 34 with all buildings and a capitol with a max cap of 46?

Well, I'll have a lot of Slaves left over I suspect. Last game my capital was 109 at the end, I won a Tower of Mastery victory, built the towers in 1 turn and the Mastery tower in 2 thanks to a GE I had a few other cities around 50.

The changes sound interesting. I'm not sure about the Slaves though, maybe add something else you can do with them? Sacrifice them to give your Meele units some XP or something?

 

[Valkrionn]

So, up to 4 Cities with a max cap of 34 with all buildings and a capitol with a max cap of 46?

Well, I'll have a lot of Slaves left over I suspect. Last game my capital was 109 at the end, I won a Tower of Mastery victory, built the towers in 1 turn and the Mastery tower in 2 thanks to a GE I had a few other cities around 50.

The changes sound interesting. I'm not sure about the Slaves though, maybe add something else you can do with them? Sacrifice them to give your Meele units some XP or something?

Don't forget conquering new cities or using the ritual. There's no real limit to the number of cities you can have... Just how many you can have EASILY.

And yes, the current values for the popcap are arbitrary and have not been tested. Expect them to change once it goes to the testers.

 

[Irenicus_Jon]

I'm looking forward to these changes.

30-40ish population is pretty much when you get to make any unit in 1 turn as well running a lot of specialists. Higher than 40 is usually not useful unless you are running guilds and trying to get a lot of GP to appear.

One question though, does this mean D'tesh won't be able to cottage anymore? If they are left with pyres/crypts only, this means they will end up with a lot of in the early game since crypts provide 2 instead of a cottage's 1 1 . One thing I like to do with D'tesh is ignore the crypts, spam cottages, only research until necromancy and wage a champion/catapult war enhanced by death nodes. Guess this is going out the window next version?

D'tesh seriously need the early defense unit you plan to add, since getting archers up takes a long time and I've lost many a game to an unlucky invasion of minatours.

Btw, I think currently D'tesh don't have any mounted units (except the initial horsemen), is this going to change?

 

[Valkrionn]

I'm looking forward to these changes.

30-40ish population is pretty much when you get to make any unit in 1 turn as well running a lot of specialists. Higher than 40 is usually not useful unless you are running guilds and trying to get a lot of GP to appear.

Yeah, that's about my thought with the poplevel. Beyond that it's not so important... Believe there are around 36 plots in a three-tier city, so you can work just about all of them.

One question though, does this mean D'tesh won't be able to cottage anymore? If they are left with pyres/crypts only, this means they will end up with a lot of in the early game since crypts provide 2 instead of a cottage's 1 1 . One thing I like to do with D'tesh is ignore the crypts, spam cottages, only research until necromancy and wage a champion/catapult war enhanced by death nodes. Guess this is going out the window next version?

Correct. I don't think Cottages fit for them at all, so they aren't allowed. Yields are being changed anyway though, believe cottages are back to flat commerce.

D'tesh seriously need the early defense unit you plan to add, since getting archers up takes a long time and I've lost many a game to an unlucky invasion of minatours.

Yes. I'm not quite sure how to add it (defensive, so archer, but no ranged, so melee...) at the moment though. It has a definite place in the unit tree... But that place is based on changes that aren't implemented yet and won't be for a few versions, so yeah. Need a temporary location.

Btw, I think currently D'tesh don't have any mounted units (except the initial horsemen), is this going to change?

Not likely. I don't remember them having any blocked mounted units though.

 

[Cyrusfan]

I've been playing with the populated cottages mod (which I'm sure you don't need me to tell you is hideously OP for what it does to your non-capitol cities), I think with a bunch of wonders that allow specialists being assigned, I was looking at mid-40s population to work all tiles and fill all specialists, and 60 without the cottages, so you might want to take a closer look at those numbers.

On burning population for the ritual, I'm not sure where you guys are getting the flood of slaves, but it sounds like the crypts will provide an adequate amount. You might consider preventing slaves being removed from the city while the ritual is in the queue to avoid an exploit ( or disband the city if population isn't high enough at completion, or scuttle the ritual if population drops too low-I'm not sure which is easiest).

 

[Valkrionn]

I've been playing with the populated cottages mod (which I'm sure you don't need me to tell you is hideously OP for what it does to your non-capitol cities), I think with a bunch of wonders that allow specialists being assigned, I was looking at mid-40s population to work all tiles and fill all specialists, and 60 without the cottages, so you might want to take a closer look at those numbers.

On burning population for the ritual, I'm not sure where you guys are getting the flood of slaves, but it sounds like the crypts will provide an adequate amount. You might consider preventing slaves being removed from the city while the ritual is in the queue to avoid an exploit ( or disband the city if population isn't high enough at completion, or scuttle the ritual if population drops too low-I'm not sure which is easiest).

I didn't say anything about working specialists. Just working plots.


I can prevent pop from being removed during the ritual easily enough. Can also allow them to disband cities if I wanted to. Don't think I'd do that though.

 

[Cyrusfan]

Yes, I see you not saying anything about specialists. But since I'm still going to build things that provide specialist slots, I'd like to be able to fill those slots. And GP are nice to have every once in a while. So, pretty please?

It seems to me you could carry that "D'Tesh gets stuff through force of will and throwing away a bunch of population" idea farther. While I'm whining about specialists, perhaps a minor repeatable ritual that gives a free specialist permanently at the cost of 3 (or 5 or whatever) population. Or constructing the hero Lord D'Tesh could wipe out a bunch of population, Or a couple to empower an adept (or improve adepts). I wouldn't want every unit to cost population, just the good ones.

Also, I think if you make the cost in population for extra vessels high enough, you won't need the delay timer (which I expect to be nearly the pain in the butt that monitoring creepers to make hallowed lands is), but I'm thinking like half of the current maximum population of the city.

 

[Valkrionn]

Yes, I see you not saying anything about specialists. But since I'm still going to build things that provide specialist slots, I'd like to be able to fill those slots. And GP are nice to have every once in a while. So, pretty please?

You can fill them. You just may not be able to work all the plots AND the specialists. Same thing as other civs.

It seems to me you could carry that "D'Tesh gets stuff through force of will and throwing away a bunch of population" idea farther. While I'm whining about specialists, perhaps a minor repeatable ritual that gives a free specialist permanently at the cost of 3 (or 5 or whatever) population. Or constructing the hero Lord D'Tesh could wipe out a bunch of population, Or a couple to empower an adept (or improve adepts). I wouldn't want every unit to cost population, just the good ones.

Not sure about that, as it could be painful early on.

Also, I think if you make the cost in population for extra vessels high enough, you won't need the delay timer (which I expect to be nearly the pain in the butt that monitoring creepers to make hallowed lands is), but I'm thinking like half of the current maximum population of the city.

More than likely yes. It's not implemented yet, and none of it has gone to the testers, so it's yet to be playtested.

 

[Cyrusfan]

I have no problem working all plots and filling most specialist slots with other civs eventually, but then I also build farms in a checkerboard pattern so the irrigation spread reaches everywhere. I'll admit it's a little peculiar for shambling hordes of undead to be producing as many great thinkers as I typically do, but I don't really want to let them go, either. Guess I'll wait and see.

 

[Shinzen]

There does have to be a limit though. My last game I won with w Tower of Mastery victory, enabled by having 73 engineers in my 109 population capitol at the end of the game.

I was getting almost 1000 /turn. Without God King.

 

[odalrick]

which I expect to be nearly the pain in the butt that monitoring creepers to make hallowed lands is

Minor aside: Scions Healthcare includes a fix for that and you don't have to install the other parts of the module if you don't want them.

 

[Valkrionn]

There does have to be a limit though. My last game I won with w Tower of Mastery victory, enabled by having 73 engineers in my 109 population capitol at the end of the game.

I was getting almost 1000 /turn. Without God King.

Right. There's just too much runaway atm... One reason I'd NEVER allow the D'tesh (or any other fallow civ, except maybe the Scions with their happy cap) access to the Multiple Production trait.

Minor aside: Scions Healthcare includes a fix for that and you don't have to install the other parts of the module if you don't want them.

Mind linking to that thread again? Can't remember what you did, interested to see the changes.

 

[odalrick]

Mind linking to that thread again? Can't remember what you did, interested to see the changes.

Here it is.

 

[Cyrusfan]

Thanks, odalrick. I am no longer beating my head against the keyboard playing the Scions.

 

[Valkrionn]

Here it is.

Thanks, I'll be looking through it tonight.

To be honest, I won't be using most of it... Not really in keeping with the flavor, and steps into D'tesh territory (Ghosthouse? Embalmer?). Some of it (creeper stuff especially) I will look at in detail, and I'll likely add a few new UB's for them, even if not the ones you made.

In other news, D'tesh now have a new UU and a new improvement. Brings them to a total of 6 improvements, and that is all they will be able to construct.

• New unit: Pyre Barge
  • Replaces Work Boat.
  • Can construct the Pyre improvement
  • Otherwise identical in stats.
• New improvement: Pyre
  • As of now, same name as the standard Pyre, though the art is slightly different.
  • Can be constructed on any aquatic resource, or Kelp/Kelp Forest.
  • Removes Kelp, Kelp Forest, and Reefs when built
  • Otherwise identical to the normal Pyre

All I did for the art was sink it slightly, making the base invisible... Tried to mount it on a boat, but I could not find a boat that was compatible with the nif (art comes from Kohan, so it's a newer version) AND allowed me to remove masts/sails/etc. Gave up after searching through the entire database.

If you can think of a better name for it, post away. I'm not opposed to leaving it called the Pyre, but it's a bit confusing with two improvements of the same name.

Here's a pic of the standard Pyre and the aquatic variant... Sorry for the smoke, didn't quite hit the button in time.