Dutch War Progress

[Chieftess]

I took over for Daveshack after he had to leave. We had a few stutter-steps in the beginning, then started taking some cities. We just got through defending against a horde of swords (and we won, too)!

The above are the cities that I'd like to capture if it were my game. I'd get Howlerd (and rename it to Nijmegen ) just for the incense. We shouldn't really leave any Dutch cities in our interior.

 

[GenMarshall]

Utrecht should be our first priority to capture since that is the place where the Dutch has their only iron (They settled on top of that iron). Once we capture Utrecht, then we can proceed on taking the Dutch cities (amount to be determaned by the External Affairs guy).

 

[mad-bax]

I agree with CT. We have come this far, Howlerd will give us incense and Amsterdam Spices. 4 native luxes and a market and we are done as far as happiness goes. Add a temple and a few cathederals - maybe even HG if the French get it.

I think now that we can just take our time in dismantling the Dutch. Another 12 turns or so is fine. We need to slow off military builds now and start building settlers. We need a couple more granaries and some settler pumps. We should also pre-build libraries. All the temple builds should be switched to courthouse as a prebuild for libraries. We can get literature any time we like.

Settlers are the most importand builds. Lets build SF with granaries assuming a republican government in 15 turns.

 

[Chieftess]

We only have 20-some swords - most which are healing/garrisoned. We shouldn't slow down on swords just yet. In fact, I'd like to have closer to 30 (for upgrades), along with the eventual builds of knights. BTW, most of the horsemen have died in battle (told 'ya they weren't too good - great for units out in the open though).

 

[greekguy]

I think we should take all the cities highlighted on CT's map.

 

[mad-bax]

The horses were not used correctly CT. They should have been used for picking of 1 and 2 hp units. At the end of this war we should be left with just horses. The swords will not be worth a carrot.

We do need more units of course, and I would still prefer horses to swords. They will be cavalry eventually and the speed is essential to get them to where they are needed. Swords built in 5 turns time will not see action in the Dutch war, where horses will.

I just want to caution about building units right to the end of the war. If they can't get to the front line in time then they are a waste. Horses can garrison towns and free up swords for Amsterdam and the couple of other cities and towns on hills.

More than anything we need cities.

 

[DaveShack]

The horses were not used correctly CT. They should have been used for picking of 1 and 2 hp units. At the end of this war we should be left with just horses. The swords will not be worth a carrot.

Yes, I incorrectly assumed that 12hp of 2-attack vs 3-6hp of 2-defense was a good enough risk. If I didn't know better I would say the combat model is set to give defending spears a bonus against attacking horses.

It is still worthwhile to upgrade a limited number of swords to MDI, especially if we could manage to rush Leo's. We can also use swords to finish off the Indians, which in Republic would let us strip the inland core of defenders and just defend the shores and border with China.

New builds should definitely be horses, and in large numbers.

 

[mad-bax]

If I didn't know better I would say the combat model is set to give defending spears a bonus against attacking horses.

You and me both!
I wasn't blaming you Dave, I was just commenting that a combined arms approach is best, and that ending up with more horses that swords is better long term, that's all.

The war is going well. This is why we can afford to talk about expanding the war aims past 6 or 7 cities to 12 and another luxury to boot. We are well set up, and the loss of horses had to do with a bad pRNG draw as much as anything.

 

[Chieftess]

The horses were not used correctly CT. They should have been used for picking of 1 and 2 hp units. At the end of this war we should be left with just horses. The swords will not be worth a carrot.

We do need more units of course, and I would still prefer horses to swords. They will be cavalry eventually and the speed is essential to get them to where they are needed. Swords built in 5 turns time will not see action in the Dutch war, where horses will.

I just want to caution about building units right to the end of the war. If they can't get to the front line in time then they are a waste. Horses can garrison towns and free up swords for Amsterdam and the couple of other cities and towns on hills.

More than anything we need cities.

Actually, that's what I was doing. (Only one horse went for pillaging). Daveshack lost several attacking Gronigen.

 

[Furiey]

Amsterdam, Arnhem and Utrect are the last of the 7 target cities. We should at least take them. The other highlighted cities would be great - Holwerd top priority for the incense, I might be tempted with Middelburg too. They should certainly give us something worthwhile in the settlement then. I would probably not bother still with the remaining 2 cities, Delft and the new city of Leiden (Northish of Middelburg).

 

[Chieftess]

Amsterdam, Arnhem and Utrect are the last of the 7 target cities. We should at least take them. The other highlighted cities would be great - Holwerd top priority for the incense, I might be tempted with Middelburg too. They should certainly give us something worthwhile in the settlement then. I would probably not bother still with the remaining 2 cities, Delft and the new city of Leiden (Northish of Middelburg).

Arnhem is size 8. So, if we take Amsterdam, and stop, we'll have a high-cultured capital next to our city -- a culture flip waiting to happen.

 

[Bertie]

Wow, great job DS and in particular Chieftess. We really need to take Ultrecht, but basically we've gutted the Dutch. Once our troops have a chance to rest and heal, they're history.

I basically agree that since we've gone this far we might as well reduce the Dutch to one or two cities. I'll poll it tomorrow, and reference this thread as the discussion thread.

 

[Nobody]

Once our troops have a chance to rest and heal, they're history.

"once luca brasi checks in there dead meat, we still got all the horses"
maybe we should take middleburg as well, i think its connected to iron. infact i think we should take all their citys and wipe them off the planet. I don't know why people on here always like to leave the ai with 1 or 2 citys. A small hostile civ can still delare war and entangle you with alliances and in the unlikely event of a UN vote, they can vote against you. I know its unlikely for the UN to vote as we arnt going for it, but the AI could still bulid it, its better to play the percentages what they may be.

 

[zyxy]

Great progress on the war! I'll ditto Furiey concerning the targets.

I agree with DS that swords/MDI's will still be useful for a while, probably until gunpowder units arrive. Most of the other civs do not have iron and so will be unable to counterattack with anything decent -- IMO the increased risk of counterattacks is one of the two biggest drawbacks of using infantry, the other is long transit time from barracks to front. Of course cavalry is vastly superior to anything else and by this time swords become definitively obsolete.

I think that for "operation big granary" we should go heavy on swords/MDI, with a few horse to pick off archers. Come to think of it, if we decide to pursue this and invest in some troop transports, these swords could serve for quite a while as a primitive marine force. The galleys will provide them with the necessary speed and initiative. Would also be good roleplay since we're the seafaring Fanatannians.

Infantry can also serve on the front lines, for example to take out the Indian settlements in the east, and to guard frontline cities. It should be phased out by the time knights arrive. Knights are more expensive to build but you need fewer of them (they can do zone defense because of their high mobility).

 

[LeeT911]

I don't know why people on here always like to leave the ai with 1 or 2 citys.

Leaving a really weak AI lets you extort money and techs from them every now and then. So if by chance they research an optional tech, you can just bully it out of them. Also, completely wiping out a rival civ causes all the other civs (that knew them of course) to have a negative attitude shift towards you.

That said, I'm something of a neat freak who doesn't like loose ends, so I usually end up finishing them off in my games.

 

[Ginger_Ale]

Also, once the AI usually gets a tech, they'll trade it around between themselves. The more AIs that have it, the less it costs us to buy it/the less it is worth for them.

 

[Stuck_as_a_Mac]

I agree we should hit these cities. They would give us luxes and resources and most importantly, the land. If you havent looked yet, this war has propelled us into the lead as teh most populus and the largest nation. This would only serve to cement that lead.

Plus, it makes us masters of the subcontinent. From there, we can work on infra and start our culture plan.

SaaM