early engineer... what to do?

[UncleJJ]

I agree with Invisiblestalke that settling is the best choice for the GE in these circumstances. There will seldom be a better time to settle a GE as I assume Representation is being run from the Pyramids and Rameses is Industrious so the hammers are very efficient.

I would settle in the capitol (to get the Bureacracy bonus, when he researchs that) and just start building the Parthenon. If he builds the Parthenon than that is great boost for a SE and if he fails then he gets nice dollop of gold to finance a higher research rate. You really can't go far wrong when you are Industrious and have the resource (i.e. marble) for the wonder, not building is a waste of the trait and luck with resources. The settled GE is particularly valuable in that, as Invisiblestalke says, he gives 6 base beakers (multiplied by research multipliers) and 3 hammers which gets bonusses from forge, Bureaucracy, OR etc for normal builds and even more for Wonders.

Personally I think Settling is almost always the worst option for a great person. It gives the best long term yield, but Civ4 (at least to me) is about the now factor. If I'm not strong now, technically advanced now, etc, then I won't be able to keep pace with the AI or in MP games.

I can agree that using a GP for building a wonder or lightbulbing something now can be beneficial and outweigh the long term gain ... if the player makes use of the technology or wonder. Getting the GL early (say 8 turns) can give quite a few extra GPPs (8 * 8 = 64 GPPs) and extra beakers (8 * 6 raw beakers). But in my opinion that is far outweighed by say another 200 turns with 6 beakers and 3 hammers. Of course it also insures that you get the GL rather than the AI build it. Similarly for lightbulbing a tech that will take 8 turns to research, you can build the unit or building it unlocks 8 turns sooner than if you research it normally. But so many players lightbulb and then don't take advantage of the tech they've gained or trade it away for another tech they also don't use immediately. In that case a long term perspective is much more powerful than a short term one. Too many people associate lightbulbing with being good play and settling as bad; and it is just not true, at least not always, although it can be in some cases.

Panthenon costs 400 hammers. With 150% bonus it's equivalent to 160 hammers. Why would you trade 700 beakers (cost of machinery) for 160 hammers?

I don't like this way of looking at the Parthenon's cost. It is a very underated wonder. The OP is going to run a SE and therefore the Parthenon could easily give him more than 1000 extra GPPs before it becomes obsolete with Chemistry. It will give those GP earlier than he would get them without it. That is a much bettter trade off than lightbulbing a tech only worth 700 beakers and that is easy to research or trade for. And I'd trade 160 hammers for 1000 GPPs any day.

 

[gettingfat]

I don't like this way of looking at the Parthenon's cost. It is a very underated wonder. The OP is going to run a SE and therefore the Parthenon could easily give him more than 1000 extra GPPs before it becomes obsolete with Chemistry. It will give those GP earlier than he would get them without it. That is a much bettter trade off than lightbulbing a tech only worth 700 beakers and that is easy to research or trade for. And I'd trade 160 hammers for 1000 GPPs any day.

This is about opportunity cost and maximization of your resource. You use the GE for something else doesn't forbid you from building Parthenon by yourself. 160 hammers are basically a couple of forests and population points plus probably 8 to 12 turns building in a moderately productive city. Remember Panthenon is not something most AIs like to build quick. Most of the time an industrious leader with marble will be able to get it comfortably without stopping the military production.

700 beakers are difficult to get in early game as the only beaker-enhancing device is the library, and the cottage hasn't even matured enough. You can further maximize your return from trading tech later at opportune time to backfill your techs and grab more cash. For a non-financial leader, lightbulbing techs are something that are much more attractive.

Settling the GE is a legitimate option, though.

 

[sabutai]

sorry, i'm a newb, but how do u choose what you learn when sacrificing, it seems random to me

but i have only had prophets so far, maybe its different with ge

 

[darrelljs]

I'm surprised by how long this debate has gone on...what seemed so clear to me apparently is not . I think popping a wonder, especially as an Industrious leader with the accelerating resource, is not a good choice. There are cheaper ways to get the Parthenon, and while you might end up losing the wonder, it is a good gamble. I think we all know by now lightbulbing is a very effective way to maintain the tech lead in the early game. However, on Monarch it is unlikely you will have enough of a tech deficit to necessitate much trading (especially running Representation). With the information provided by the OP there doesn't seem to be any compelling near term reason to pop a tech or a wonder.

I stated 1H 3S because you can run an engineer off of the forge. Personally I think Settling is almost always the worst option for a great person.

So it really isn't 1H 3B, is it? It is 2F/0.5H/3B/-3GPP, because running an engineer specialist off the Forge costs food, but the Forge boosts the 2H to 2.5H. Maybe discounting the food is why you think settling is always a bad option .

Darrell

 

[MrWhereItsAt]

I'm surprised by how long this debate has gone on...what seemed so clear to me apparently is not

Me too, but from the complete opposite POV. I never lightbulb with Great Engineers. I might consider doing so with a Prophet if I didn't have any Holy cities lacking shrines, or maybe a Merchant if there was no big profitable AI city I could get to easily. It simply seems like a huge waste to me to spend a GE on any one tech, even given the potential for trading it for others. For most techs, you get the same benefits as anyone else regardless of when you get there. If you're not considerably behind in tech overall, I don't see many compelling arguments for getting to one tech first. Couldn't you just ramp your science up for some more turns?

I take the point about cheaper wonders with Industrious and/or Marble/Stone etc, however it's not how much you're saving on a wonder's normal cost that you should look at, but the benefit of that wonder, and how long it will take you to get said wonder through normal building means. If my best city couldn't build the Great Library in less than 25 or so turns and I knew others had Literature, you bet I'd rush the wonder with that GE!

GEs are in my experience tough to get early on since you have to rely on the few Wonder points or the one specialist possible with a Forge until as late as Mercantilism, Statue of Liberty or Factories. There's none of this problem with Priests, Artists, Merchants or Scientists, the points for all of which can be gained quite quickly with the corresponding improvements. I would keep the GE until there was a wonder I wanted sufficiently to use it for, or maybe settle it if there was nothing on the horizon I wanted/needed enough.

 

[Heffling]

Darrell, you are quite correct that I didn't take into account the food. That is my oversight, and obviously is something that should be considered.

I didn't consider the bonus from the forge because eventually you can research MC and build the forge regardless (and work the engineer, too!). However, that takes significantly more time.


Sabutai: Each Great Person (GP) has a specific tech order that they will lightbulb. The GP when used to lightbulb will add 1000 + 3x population as beakers to that tech, with no spillover. You can do some digging and figure out the exact tech order used by each GP. Or if you have an existing GP, you can examine the lightbulb (hold mouse over it) and it will tell you what tech and completion or how many lb's it will add.

Oh, and scientists get a base of 1500 instead of 1000.

 

[Harbourboy]

So, the answer is: it depends. There is no right or wrong answer. But whatever you decide to do, make sure you follow up with the actions that leverage your decision, e.g:
- early tech => make sure you get a good price when trading
- rush wonder => make sure you specialise that city properly to get the benefits (e.g. science city for Great Library)
- settle => make sure it's in a city that will reap the benefits
etc

 

[smokey t bones]

i would go ahead and build the parthenon. it may not be as great as the great library, but it still helps enormously. you can build the great library later.

smokey t bones, ph.d. (in partyology)

 

[druidravi]

I would still say use it for temple of artemeis . You can build it by hand but the Ai builds this wonder fast and you might not have time for it. +100% trade routes in capital is huge particularly when you run buearacracy. And 5 gpp points is nothing to sneeze at along with the 1, 1 ,3 from the free priest , it becomes more if you can get Ankor wat later .

By the way all this discussion is moot. I think he must have finished that game by now forget about using a GE