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Early Game Fail...But Can I Still Win?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Jatta Pake, Jul 17, 2013.

  1. Jatta Pake

    Jatta Pake Warlord

    Joined:
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    Los Angeles
    By all accounts, my first BNW game seems to be a classic "Retire" early scenario.

    Me = Ottomans (no experience with this Civ, Large Standard map King, 22 Civs, 20 CS)

    Piety

    I typically enjoy playing the religious domination game, so my culture focus was Piety. I started near a coast with one fish and two crab so I beelined to Work Boats. Noting that the Ottomans seem to be a naval civ, I delayed expanding with new cities to go for the Great Lighthouse. Nothing like complimenting a strength with another strength, right?

    I lost the Great Lighthouse gamble so I purchased a Settler with my nest egg and built a new city in the middle of 10 iron by the coast. With a third city along the coast I focused all production on Faith buildings. I was the six player to take a Pantheon Belief (God of Sea) and I didn't want to lose out on a religion.

    I lost out on a religion.

    Invasion

    My focus on Faith cost me militarily. I shared a continent with seven other civs who all seemed cool with me as wilderness kept most of us apart. But I'm a veteran Civ player and I know you need to be careful when Shaka and Monty are neighbors. I had two Swordsman in production when Monty invaded.

    Two things happened quickly. My land and sea trade routes were plundered sending my GPT into negatives. My first road was interrupted as a worker was captured. Science collapsed.

    Decision

    I estimated that my two Swordsman, along with a Composite Bowman garrisoned in my capital could defend against the five Jags, two catapults, and three Composite Bowmans on Monty's side. But losing my Swordsmen during the defense would be disastrous as I had no idea what Monty had hidden in the Fog of War. I had to keep them in reserve and protected.

    It was this time that I decided to double down on Piety. Rather than open Liberty, Tradition, or Honor, I said screw it and devoted my culture to closing out Piety. Religion be damned!

    Victory, then Loss

    With negative GPT, I tried every diplomatic trick in the book to get me back on track gold wise. I would have had a Crab to sell, but the Greeks came begging a turn before Monty's invasion. Additionally, my population growth had launched me into Unhappiness.

    Against all odds, I beat back Monty's invasion. I focused all fire power on the ground troops. The Swordsmen stayed out of battle until a Jag was weakened into the red. The turn after I killed the last Jag, Monty's catapults and Bowman destroyed the last HP of my capital. If the Greek Phalanx sailing by my capital had decided to rush in at that moment, I would have lost my capital. But I guess the free fresh crab meat paid off.

    At this point it was a mop up operation. Monty offered peace terms, I rejected, and he fled. My Unhappy citizens got back to work rebuilding my deficit running capital. But additional storms appeared on the horizon. Austria was massing Pikeman and Composite Bowman around my second city.

    A weakened Swordsman pursued the Aztecs across the frontier to their border. I plundered their trade route, killed a couple more units, and killed a Great General. But the bloodlust came at a price and my Swordsman strayed too close to the Aztec capital and died. It was worth it though as Monty offered Copper and Gold to end the war.

    The Hammer Drops

    After a few turns of Austrian troops playing musical chairs around my border, Maria attacked. I was negative GPT with zero gold, negative Happiness, dead last in research, dead last in overall score, still pursuing Piety without a religion and minus an important unit (veteran Swordsman). But the war was less about what I had and more about what Maria didn't have. She had no military strategy.

    Maria led her troops like a schizophrenic. First they attacked my second city then pulled back after some losses. Then my weakened capital. Then my second city again. Each switch cost her units health and time. She sacrificed units to pillage my resources, but most of my resources were in the ocean catching fish and crabs.

    I brought two more Swordsman online and kept them in reserve for mop up. Austria's invasion was eventually crushed. Most shocking, she had no reserves defending her capital. I sent some units in and pillaged before retreating. Maria was devastated. She offered a treasure trove of booty to end the war.

    Conclusion?

    After the war with Austria, I was able to build two sea trade routes with India. My first road was finished, and two Marketplaces were built closing my budget deficit. Even better, my third city converted to Christianity allowing me to build a mosque with Faith. Two turns later, it was converted to Judaism by the Celts, allowing me to build a Pagoda and Cathedral. My happiness is now +18. I had built a Christian missionary before my city converted to Judaism so I'm in the process of spreading both religions to my first two cities so I can build all of the buildings.

    I've concluded that the early game mistakes in BNW aren't as game ending as I had expected. I'm still dead last in Research and Score, but the civs aren't dog piling me as my military remains a deterrent thanks to all of my iron. I'm Friendly with the other civs and even Monty says our past war has no negative diplomatic impact. I've gambled on a Sea and Religion strategy so it remains to be seen how I fair at later stages of the game.
     
  2. Jatta Pake

    Jatta Pake Warlord

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    100 Turns Later

    Since my last update I was attacked twice more by the Zulus and once more by Austria. Each war resulted in successive victories by my Ottomans with few lost troops, massive invader casualties, and favorable peace terms. The final war with the Zulus did not end until I marched in and captured their border city. I was denounced by several civs for my aggression but overall the world community seemed to agree that the Zulus were jerks.

    I clawed my way up from a massive Science deficit using a super Spy in Austria's capital. Vienna's secrets were an open book to my people and we gobbled up technology after technology.

    It eventually became apparent that I needed to take Vienna if I hoped to secure my borders. I kept my borders closed to Austria after our last war, and I made sure to Denounce them. I got a few Denouncements from Austria's friends in turn, but I believe it made my invasion less of a shock to the other world powers. I am at last a Warmonger to many civs but it was worth it to annex another civ's capital into my growing empire.
     
  3. sffrrrom

    sffrrrom Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Well, from my experience, it's more that BNW fools you into thinking you're not screwed. But probably, you are. Since the AI now seems to do a little better at peaceful development, this means that the more you fall behind early on, the more the AI can pull away (basically what the player usually does).

    That said, on King, you could probably be competitive by the late mid or late game. Most of the victory conditions are pretty slow (except diplo) and with 22 civs there should be a lot of war to slow everyone down. I say go for it and see what happens!
     
  4. Jatta Pake

    Jatta Pake Warlord

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    Piety and Exploration

    My investment in Piety is finally paying off. Although I failed to found a religion, a couple of my cities have converted to India's Hinduism which allows me to buy military units with Faith.

    With 2,000 Faith stockpiled I was able to buy a game changing number of Janissaries for my wars. Oddly, not having founded a religion has benefited me more than if I had founded my own religion. I've been able to manipulate which religion becomes a majority through missionaries and inquisitors so that I was able to take advantage of different buildings available for the different religions.

    I also decided to go down the Exploration path. This has also benefited my civ as my three core cities are on the ocean. My next goal is to become a massive naval power which will be aided by the Ottoman's unique ability of naval units having only one third the upkeep cost. My twelve iron will allow me to field twelve Frigates which should be more than enough to dominate the oceans.

    Additionally, my Sea Trading Routes are amplified by the Exploration path. I'm building Harbors to get trading bonuses but I'm also picking up other bonuses as well.

    Current Standing
    I estimate that I've moved from dead last among 22 civs to about 15th place. There are now at least seven civs weaker than me and I seem to be among the majority pack. There are a few breakouts each in Science, Wonders, and Culture but no one is dominating several categories.

    This game had all the markings of a rage quit failure beginning with the untimely death of my warrior to a barbarian camp while exploring. I now feel like I might have a competitive edge in the ocean. Hopefully I can parlay this into a win.
     
  5. Muskie

    Muskie Warlord

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    If you opened Piety and didn't found a religion you are doing something wrong.

    I always try to found a religion and I don't like to open Piety. My solution since G&K which I really should detail, but basically Stonehege and carefully choosing my Pantheon belief. I also settle near any holy mountains I find.

    Back in G&K in the one game I didn't get a religion I think I lost, if you go Piety and fail it is a big blow.

    In my current game my religion is strong and I'm Korea with no Piety. I'm not really a fan of the Piety open, I think Stonehege is a surer thing.
     
  6. Jatta Pake

    Jatta Pake Warlord

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    I never had a problem getting a religion in G&K so clearly I did a lot of things wrong. :lol: I'm using this game to test whether Piety-only without founding a religion is still a viable strategy. To top it off I've followed up with Exploration.

    It sounds nuts but I think I can pull it off. Certainly not ideal play, but may give players a second thought about rage quitting after being screwed in early game play.
     
  7. fotonut

    fotonut Warlord

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    Sorry, not responding to the thread, but I am curious as to what you think of the performance with a Large map and 22 Civs. I played my first and only BNW game with a Small map and 5 Civs, at King level, and around 1900s things were beginning to get slow as far as how long it took for turns to proceed. I am afraid to start a Large map game for that reason.

    Are you finding that the performance is acceptable so far?
     
  8. Philosophia

    Philosophia Chieftain

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    I'm really curious how your game is going if you wouldn't mind giving everyone an update.
     
  9. Jatta Pake

    Jatta Pake Warlord

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    Performance is acceptable to me but may not be acceptable to everyone. Turns take about 90 seconds right now (in 1700s) if you don't count leader screen interruptions. I would like to disable some these as I get annoyed with civs telling me I'm breeding like rats or that they are denouncing me. My computer is a dual core Win 7 about four years old.
     
  10. tomplum68

    tomplum68 Warlord

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    Sounds like a fun game.

    Being behind and trying to catch up can be more fun than being the run-away leader sometimes.

    As far as your warmongering status goes, I've read in other posts that taking cities from small empires hurts you more than taking cities from large empires and there is no longer a hit for eliminating an empire (civ). Also, denouncing before declaring war decreases the diplo damage, which you did.

    I find it really puzzling that you could finish piety without founding a religion. That had to suck but it seems your making the most out of it. In most of my games the religions close out because a religion advances than the max number get created.
     
  11. Jatta Pake

    Jatta Pake Warlord

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    Sure! I didn't get to play last night but I'll give an update. I can also drop some save games into a downloadable spot (here, Dropbox?) if anyone wants to take a look at the progress.

    I am by no means a power player. I can beat King on occasion and the games are always close. I don't micromanage city tiles either, I let the computer pick what it thinks is best. The most I ever do is assign Specialists, mainly to boast Great Person production. I don't like doing math. :)

    I just captured Vienna from Austria and annexed it into my empire putting me at five cities. As far as I can tell, the majority of AIs have three cities max with a few around six or seven. I don't have any Wonders but neither do eight other AIs. The most any civ has are three.

    Greece founded the World Congress. They proposed a resolution to ban furs which I have none, and it passed. Venice proposed Arts Funding that I spent my delegate opposing but it passed. The next round of voting is in 15 turns (forgot to look at the new proposed resolutions).

    I share a continent with India, Aztecs, Austria, Celts, Zulu, Greeks, Carthage, and Korea. I have 4/5 sea cargo trade routes across the ocean with Portugal. I am two policies away from closing out the Exploration policy. I closed Piety without a religion and I'm generating about +45 :c5faith: per turn. Two cities are Hindu with the ability to buy pre-Industrial units with Faith. Three cities are Judaism with ability to buy Industrial units with Faith.

    My two biggest allies are Greece and India. Carthage is large but underdeveloped and Korea is a science leader. Aztecs and Celts are neutral with me (I've denounced them both). Zulu and Austria hate me along with a mix of nations on other continents.

    Most of the civs are late Renaissance along with me, but three just moved to Industrial. There is a one tile island off my coast that I'm considering populating with a new city. This may be a terrible idea but I hope to amp its growth with an internal trade route.

    As mentioned earlier, I'm going to try to use my Iron, Civ unique ability, and Exploration to dominate the world's oceans. At some point, most of the world will hate me and I will fuel my economy through trade route plunder and conquest. Greece will ultimately be my biggest rival on my continent so I'm trying to stay on good terms with them. They control the World Congress and I hope they will protect me if we are friends.
     
  12. Philosophia

    Philosophia Chieftain

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    Sweet, sounds like a promising game.
     
  13. Gabriel Pyyrhic

    Gabriel Pyyrhic Warlord

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    Never retire. Play each game likes its an ironman game with a no quit option and you will hopefully find the thrill of coming back from near defeat (as you seem to be experiencing now), or the agony of hanging on for grim death and desperately trying to survive as the game progress, is to big a thrill (challenge) to forgo. Also makes you a better player over time.

    Your people need you :) I have faith in you !
     
  14. andymant

    andymant Chieftain

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    You have some promise, here. Unlike most of the people I think finishing out the piety tree without having founded a religion is only marginally detrimental; the only policy you really waste is reformation, the rest can still come in handy as I'm sure you've noticed. If it were my game I probably would have skipped out on reformation and not finish the tree - you only get a free great prophet and some bonus gold from holy sites, which you won't really use because you'll be purchasing units and then great people. 15 frigates is totally overkill, by the way! Even on a large map, 5-7 should be MORE than enough to do what you need them to do! Purchasing Janissaries with faith is amazing, I love those units. Make sure you build your heroic epic and armory in the hindu city just for that reason.

    For the future, keep an eye on Greece. I find him just as irriating as Montezuma in civ 4, only he will screw you in the long game too! He's going to have an iron grip on the WC for pretty much ever, so you'll have to do some serious work to get him there. Honestly your best bet is to befriend the people he alienates himself from with the WC and take him down. Or if you somehow manage to grab enough influence or delegates to pass a resolution against him, embargo him to cripple his ability to grab CS, or straight up ban the CS all together from the WC.
     
  15. Jatta Pake

    Jatta Pake Warlord

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    Thanks for the comments guys.

    Not a lot happened during my play session last night but here is a summary: I ended up founding my sixth city on a single square island off my continent. I sent an internal trade route to it with food, and bought a granary and aqueduct to really pump it's population growth.

    Denouncements and wars are raging across the globe. I have a Caravel set on auto-explore and it witnesses death and destruction every turn. I am not experiencing a more passive AI as some have complained. Rather, regional wars are raging across the planet.

    I'm sticking with Greece for now. He asked me to go to war with his southern neighbor, Carthage, and I agreed. I didn't have any interest in the war but I want to keep Alex happy and occupied. Carthage plundered one of my sea routes so I sent a part of my navy sailing around the continent for vengeance. I captured one of her Galleus and she sued for peace giving me +22:c5gold: per turn and +2 iron per turn.

    The other drama was the World Congress. Enough civs have moved into the Industrial Era so it was time to elect a new host. Greece had 8 delegates but Venice had 11 delegates. Venice is Hostile with me and constantly pops up on the leader screen to insult me. I had 3 delegates so I backed Greece. Greece won the tie vote, remains host, and is now even more friendly with me.

    The majority of my turns last night were spent consolidating my empire. My economy is booming, faith is booming, culture is booming so I worked on happiness and building my fleet and upgrading my trebs to cannons.

    I have a five ship fleet sailing towards Venice right now. He's pulling in +250 :c5gold: per turn and a diplomatic pain in my backside. My goal is to wreck his economy. After cranking out a few more Janissaries I will march on Monty. He has one MASSIVE city.

    Earlier Denouncements against me are timing out and the civs seem to be focused on regional domination right now. If I can take out Monty and make some cash plundering Venice, I should be on the path to dominating my continent. Here is a rough overview of the politics on my continent:

    Power Alliance: Greece, India and me
    Greek Punching Bags Alliance: Carthage, Celts
    Marginalized Chips-on-Their-Shoulders Alliance: Austria, Zulu
    Hermit Kingdom: Monty
    Wildcard Southern Power: Korea (hates Greece, loves me)
     
  16. Jatta Pake

    Jatta Pake Warlord

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    This Means Total War

    My recent momentum has stalled. Here is what happened. I joined India in a war against the Celts which has kept my relationship with India very friendly. I haven't committed any resources to the war, but the Celts city-state allies plundered one of my trade routes. Ouch. Other than that, the war between us has been on paper only.

    After a couple more Janissaries joined my border with Monty, I launched my invasion. His single pop 26 city had sprawling borders and my march was going to take some time. He had a mountain on one hex next to his city giving him a nice physical barrier to my invasion that I would need to maneuver around.

    At the same time, I sent my navy after Venice's trade routes. This meant war and I was a little rattled with the number of city state allies he had. Never-the-less, I plundered five of Venice's ocean trade routes. Venice was also in the midst of a war of conquest with his very weak German neighbor. Germany hates me but my intervention seems to have pulled his bratwurst out of the fire. Together we destroyed Venice's navy and killed a famous Venetian celebrity rock star on tour. Did I mention I hate Venetian rock music? I much prefer the smooth jazz of my Ottomans.

    The ground invasion against Monty was met with a big surprise. Hidden inside his fog of war, Monty had a massive army of knights. My invasion brought a lone Pikeman unit who fought valiantly but Monty skirted around my flank and into Ottoman territory. In my efforts to protect my cannons, I was unable to get them into position against Monty's capital. I took heavy casualties while destroying Monty's tsunami of knights. I managed to halt Monty's advance into my territory with my reserve troops but the war had become a stalemate. Monty offered gold for peace and I accepted.

    World Congress voted and passed resolutions banning Silk and funding historical landmarks. Again I supported Greece in his animal rights crusade. He was very grateful that animals and silkworms were no longer being exploited for Fur and Silk. Next up on his crusade seems to be Pearls if I remember correctly. I am having trouble remembering because of the other proposal.

    Venice has proposed a ban on Crabs. Crabs!!!!!! This is a luxury upon which I've built my entire civilization. When people on my planet think of crabs, they think of succulent Ottoman crabs. Delicious mouth watering crabs that can only be harvested by using ancient Ottoman techniques. This. Can. Not. Stand!

    I have about 21 turns to take down this resolution. I hope I can count on India voting against this as they are my best customers. But Venice is rich with ally delegates. I need to cut down his delegates if I want to have a chance at tanking this resolution.

    My strategy is two-fold. I want to capture one or two of Venice's city state allies. This is going to be tough as my Frigates don't seem to have the firepower to do a whole lot of damage to the city defenses.

    The second part of my strategy is to go delegate shopping. I'm hoping I can buy enough delegates to counter Venice. This is a long shot but what the hell, the entire game is a long shot.
     
  17. monkspider

    monkspider Warlord

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    This is shaping up to be a classic game, keep us posted!
     
  18. Jatta Pake

    Jatta Pake Warlord

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    Mid Game Fail

    My need to prevent a ban on Crabs primarily revolved around a need to keep my Happiness in positive territory. I pursued buying delegates, attacked and annexed one of Venice's city-states, and used a Great General to grab a Silver tile just outside my borders. My Happiness levels reached +15 for a turn.

    As my massive navy approached the second of Venice's city states for conquest, everything went awry. Looking back, I think I became too greedy and too reliant on outdated technologies. My science was not keeping up with the rest of the civs. After capturing Vienna long ago, my super spy needed a new target to steal technologies. Foolishly, I chose England. Honestly, I cannot justify this idiotic mistake but I guess I was thinking they were far enough away that if anything went wrong they couldn't really hurt me. But they did hurt me by killing my super spy with their counter spy. After that agent's death I was no longer able to steal any technologies. This loss was monumental.

    As my navy unleashed its firepower on the second of Venice's city state allies, I received a nasty communication from Portugal. My second best trading partner had declared war on me. This was puzzling but I immediate discovered why - Monty had pulled in a partner to exact some revenge on me.

    This time, Monty brought cannons, riflemen and lancers. I was still in the Renaissance with cannons and Janissaries. My western former Zulu city was enveloped by the wave of Aztecs. I shrugged this off though as Portugal didn't have any apparent forces available to get past my skeleton navy guarding my shores. Monty had a large invasion force but the bulk of my ground forces were stationed there. I continued my assault on Venice's second city state ally.

    Bad to Worse
    When I used the Great General to grab that Silver, I ended up taking one tile away from Greece. I wasn't overly concerned, however, as we had such fantastic relations. I'm not certain if it was my attacking of city states, taking the tile from Greece, or my overall lack of military power due to my navy being halfway around the world but my relationship with Greece deteriorated. I was denounced by both Greece and my friend India. The next turn both declared war on me.

    India quickly surrounded my capital. Greece drove a wedge between my capital and my production city. Riflemen, cannons, lancers, and knights poured across my borders. Portugal then began engaging my border navy with its own Frigates and Nau.

    Then the World Congress voted. At war with the two civs with the most delegates, I watched my Ottoman crab become an illicit commodity. Monty conquered an Austrian city to my southeast leaving me completely surrounded by civs I was at war with. To top it off, the jewel of my crown, my imperial navy was half a world away fighting a pointless fight against a City State.

    Win Some, Lose All
    Faced with a pointless war with Venice, I made peace and stopped my attack against his ally. I rallied my forces to stop the explosion of violence along every border of my empire. My citadel that took the Silver held out longer than expected against Greece and blunted Alex's invasion. After watching every single unit of mine outside my Zulu city fall to Monty, I finally halted his assault. But my capital could not hold out against India. With the defenses shattered, a Greek lancer was able to make a bold move and conquer my capital. My pop 17 capital with all of its great works fell into the hands of Alex.

    My navy raced back to my capital. A dying Privateer received a promotion which I used for +50 health. It was enough to recapture my capital now at Pop 8. Millions of citizens and countless buildings were destroyed. But the butchery wasn't over. India captured my capital next. Parts of my navy began to arrive off the coast and some gatling guns came online from my production city. After a couple turns, I retook my capital only to watch it fall to the Indians once again.

    My economy was shattered. I was -156 gold per turn with all of the trade routes dead. One last push with the arrival of my navy allowed me to retake my capital and smash the Indian forces. During the war, the majority of civs moved into the Modern Age. I was only two techs into the Industrial Age.

    My capital was now a Pop 1 city. It was literally a pile of rubble and rotting corpses. I made peace with Monty and drove the last Indian soldier from my lands. Greek forces occupied various tiles but I reclaimed my Citadel by the Silver. My "Zulu" city had every tile around it pillaged.

    I've started to rebuild. India, Greece, and Portugal have no interest in peace. Portugal recently unleashed WWI bombers against my navy forcing me to pull back far into my borders. Portugal now controls the ocean.

    My focus has been recovery, but my destroyed economy has left me hopelessly behind in technology. I've repaired the dozen plus tiles that were pillaged during the invasion, and I used two Great Generals to build Citadels along my borders with India and Monty. Siamese archeologists are hard at work stealing my artifacts but I don't have much stomach for yet another war. India, Greece, Portugal, and the Aztecs have all started fielding WWI infantry, and I don't have any gold to upgrade my last surviving Janissary to a rifleman.

    The fat lady is warming up. I've started doing Rationalism but my tech deficit is too much. I'm gambling by trying to use the lull in fighting to build two factories. I'm weighing my options. I could disband my navy and reduce my massive -96 gold per turn. But such actions would surely encourage more attacks. Alternatively, I can use my navy to try to capture one of India's coastal cities near my capital. I will probably take heavy casualties.

    Hopefully I can survive to see which AI civ wins the game. That is my goal at this point.
     
  19. Chomes99

    Chomes99 Chieftain

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    captivating story. I happening to be listening to the CiV soundtrack while reading it. I like your writing style. Have you considered creating CiV literature? Its kinda like historical fiction LOL
     
  20. Jatta Pake

    Jatta Pake Warlord

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    Thanks! Yes, I think I'll fanfic my next game and include screen shots. I have an idea for improving my style and a theme to focus on.
     

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