Early-game scouting

[Czer]

Hm, this thread is very interesting to me. I regularly play on the top 3 difficulties and as a rule NEVER build scouts. I do not find them to be very critical to my game play but I tend to either turtle on smaller landmasses and go for cultural/diplomatic or use mounted unit rushes when I have several Civs around me. Granted they may be useful for the latter strategy to find stretches of plains/grassland to move on, my first victims are usually close enough that this isn't a big deal.

I do explore with a trireme as early as possible however, I find you meet more CS first this way and end up getting more gold than you would finding a gold goodie hut. On that note I usually can grab a couple goodie huts anyways with my warrior before heading back for defense, if it can find an extra hut or two I could see a scout being a real asset early in the game. If they don't find anything extra though it would feel like a big waste to me. I will have to explore them as a flanking unit to perhaps get over that feeling.

I'm going to try building some on my next couple games right away and see if it feels like it improves my early game. I could see the happiness boost from finding more NWs being very beneficial as I frequently tend to run into happiness problems, in games which I don't found a religion, around the early medieval era.

 

[woodshadows]

on immortal and deity it's not very useful to build a scout, because the ai will have a million scouts getting all the bonuses anyhow, so instead i just set my warrior to explore and build a monument instead.

 

[Udey1]

I vote for Immediate build- one scout (regardless of difficulty) - unless you are playing a islands/water dominant map.

If you know you have a large landmass- you could consider two and not regret it.

The rewards of the early exploration too good to be lost to other civs, AI scouts often have poor routes, and you can easily nab a couple "first sighted" City state bonuses, and at least a couple close-by ruins unless settings have been cooked. One culture or religion pop can change an early game strategy, and a sc-archer is a wonderful asset in ancient times that can last all game. Roll the dice!

 

[Karmah]

If you play at higher diff level , the IA usually is ahead of you in tech early game .
I seem to remember that if a known civ already has the tech , the cost is slightly reduced. Another reason to scout out the other civs early.

 

[seancolorado]

If I have a unique unit that I can use immediately (e.g. Atlatlist, Maori Warrior) then sometimes I'll build that first instead of a scout. But if the map is really big then I always build one scout, regardless of the difficulty. I never build more than one.

 

[Gucumatz]

It really depends - I build a monument normally first thing all the time on higher SP levels [but depends on the terrain, my cap quality, if I see coast, and if I feel like it ]. If I am playing on quick pace/multiplayer I often times build a monument first and rush buy a scout however as soon as I can with the gold and after the monument is done I prefer to build another scout most of the time to have 2 scouts and a warrior exploring. A monument will put you through certain policies much quicker - but is more expensive to rush buy than a scout, and a warrior finding city states/ruins can normally do enough on quick to let you rushbuy a scout quick

If I build a scout first I send it in an opposite direction from my warrior. I don't use circles personally and try to end my turns on hills. I try to only touch the border of city states when scouting then move away from their borders as I find less ruins spawn directly next to them. (City State gold + faith for finding are very nice) - if I find coast I move further inland to scout more land tiles rather than check out the ocean.

I prefer to take my odds on somewhat damaged scout units and will push on often times because goody huts/city state finders bonuses decrease otherwise. In a case where a scout is injured, I will try to move on a hill to see safe tiles and then end in defensive terrain - often times a scout is too weak and will die anyways if its in MP [Because barbs spawn attack same turn in MP]

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Scouts are very nice - probably better in MP because of turn timers for finishing cities and once you get 3 movement on one can be a fun little guy to have around.
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And as others said - It depends on your civ too - Certain civs are great scouting civs and you might want to take the odds in a particular direction instead

 

[bhavv]

Scouts are a waste of hammers in the early game, especially on higher difficulties. Even if you are playing with ruins on, the AI will usually beat you to them with their higher level bonuses. Playing with ruins off completely removes any requirement to build scouts, I'd rather build a second warrior to help with barb hunting than ever build a scout, as it turns out to be a lot more profitable.

I like to open with Monument > Granary > Wonders and purchase a shrine asap.

 

[Udey1]

Edit.

I don't understand why all the "high" level advice is against scouts, I never regret it. It is all of 4 turns for a plain old hill city. Building a monument a couple turns
Earlier is Worth less to me if i have to remain ignorant of my surroundings.

Waste of hammers? Hardly.

 

[mintcandy]

Do you send your scouting units as far in one direction as possible? Or do you loop around in circles, with gradually increasing radii?

Typically, I send them in one direction until they hit water or foreign borders.

Occasionally, I will have them backtrack if I encounter a CS that has a barbarian hut right next to it or barbs are a consistent problem on my own borders.

Do you go 1 scout the entire game? 2 scouts right away? Or build one later on after the first one?

Typically, my first build is a Scout.

I do tend to build more Scouts later on, but not for Scouting purposes. I use these later Scouts as cheaply built garrison units, especially when I'm shooting for a Domination victory.

Is a scout ALWAYS 100% the first thing you build regardless of map?

For me, yes.

How much do you value the extra sight? As in, do you try to fight barbs as a scout to get the +1/2 sight promotion, even if it means having to heal for a few turns?

I value extra sight more for being the prerequisite for the extra move promotion, than any benefit extra sight provides on its own. This is probably because I want my Scouts to be able to move from garrison to garrison as quickly as possible.

That said, I don't intentionally fight barbs with my Scout to gain experience. However, I will use my Scout to fight barbs to gain CS influence.

If your scout is at very low HP, but is able to loot an ancient ruin before dying to barbarians the next turn, do you go for the ruin or do you save your scout?

I grab the ruin.

If your scout is badly damaged, do you heal for a few turns or continue scouting?

Depends on the circumstances, but usually, I scout the nearby terrain for safe spots to heal.

When you have built up your first scout and your warrior has already done some initial scouting, do you send your scout in the opposite direction or do you continue on where the warrior left off and send the warrior back home?

I have the Scout move off in the opposite direction of the Warrior. On occasion, I will have the Warrior come back home to stave off barbarians.

And finally, in general, how much do you value proper early game scouting?

Immensely.

The early game for me is a race to get 500 gold as quickly as possible, so I can rush buy a Settler for a critical second/third city.

Getting to those Ruins/City States before other civs do can make all the difference in getting to that crucial amount as quickly as possible.

Moreover, I do the majority of active scouting in the Ancient/Classical era before the other civs have expanded their borders.

I've found that using Scouts to actively scout after that period gets downright suicidal for the Scouts, due to the lack of combat strength. So, for me, the early game is really the only time that my Scouts can actually scout without being in constant danger of being killed with one attack.

 

[bhavv]

Edit.

I don't understand why all the "high" level advice is against scouts, I never regret it. It is all of 4 turns for a plain old hill city. Building a monument a couple turns
Earlier is Worth less to me if i have to remain ignorant of my surroundings.

Waste of hammers? Hardly.

Its still 4 turns wasted that could potentially grab you a critical wonder before the AI instead.

The early game for me is a race to get 500 gold as quickly as possible, so I can rush buy a Settler for a critical second/third city.

Getting to those Ruins/City States before other civs do can make all the difference in getting to that crucial amount as quickly as possible.

Selling resources is quicker, you have no control over what you will get out of ruins, and more often than not you wont get many ruins to pop on your map. Relying on ruins + scouts is far too inconsistent and unreliable.

 

[mintcandy]

Selling resources is quicker, you have no control over what you will get out of ruins, and more often than not you wont get many ruins to pop on your map. Relying on ruins + scouts is far too inconsistent and unreliable.

It is true that selling surplus resources is a quicker and more reliable way of generating gold than discovering ruins or new City States.

However, selling resources and using Scouts to discover Ruins/new City States aren't mutually exclusive either in my experience.

Ideally, one should be doing both at the same time.

Its still 4 turns wasted that could potentially grab you a critical wonder before the AI instead.

I find this argument's reasoning dubious at best, especially considering that the argument against using Scouts to generate some early income was that the conditions to do so were "unreliable and inconsistent".

No World Wonder is critical, and relying on early World Wonders is a good way to handicap an empire in its critical formative stages.

Yes, building an early World Wonder instead of a Scout provides tangible, concrete benefits when compared to what Ruins provide, but it's a much larger drain on early game production as well. I find that building an early Scout is much less of a risk than building an early World Wonder.

 

[Udey1]

Its still 4 turns wasted that could potentially grab you a critical wonder before the AI instead.



Selling resources is quicker, you have no control over what you will get out of ruins, and more often than not you wont get many ruins to pop on your map. Relying on ruins + scouts is far too inconsistent and unreliable.

You are forgetting meeting city states, and the funds that brings (not to mention earlier quests from them), and the tech bonus gained from other cultures having a tech you are researching.

I don't think beginning game "critical wonder" has much to do with high difficulty strategy most of the time, and also- turns do not work that way. 4 turns on a pop1 city building either a warrior/scout/worker/or monument does not mean 4 extra turns at T70 when building (insert wonder here).



I do not think anyone is relying on ruins, that is just silly.

 

[woodshadows]

i go monument first. on higher levels of play it's just not profitable to bother with the scout, you will rarely ever get an extra ruin due to the ai having several scouts scattered all over the place, so you're just delaying your social policies and paying gold maintenance on a unit with no upgrade path. in all but the worst terrain a warrior can be surprisingly good, especially with some practice, learning to end turns on hills for sight, planning moves ahead to make the most of your movement/terrain ahead, having your second turn cross that river rather than first, etc. that being said, getting a scout with the two sight promos can be pretty amazing, having it sit on a hill to spot enemy unit buildups, but still doesn't make up for the lost time on getting the monument out.

 

[bhavv]

Failing a wonder can get you enough gold to purchase a settler, you get a 100% conversion of the production returned as gold. It NEVER cripples you in the early game to produce wonders and cash in on the fail gold even if you don't want them. A scout always slows down your monument and successive builds by however many turns you wasted producing that scout.

Scouts and huts are always a random gamble on every map! Your chance of getting enough gold from them to purchase a settler is slim. You can still find city states with your warrior, you don't need a scout for that, and don't even bother trying to beat the AI, they start the game with free scouts on higher difficulties so if they are nearby to you they will beat you to ruins and city states other that what your starting warrior finds.

As I said - wasted hammers = wasted turns, AND they are inconsistent and unreliable. More often than not you will have very few ruins available, and pop crude maps.

Wonders can be obtained very reliably on higher difficulties if you have ruins turned off and tech directly to the wonder you want.