Early game strategy? / Getting a good start

[Micky Onimusha]

There's 2 general ways to get started in a game:

1 - using a worker to improve tiles

or

2 - adopt god-king and build elder councils

Civs starting with Ancient Chants can research Mysticism in a reasonable amount of time. That lets them use the god king civic and elder councils to get started. With the extra from god king, you can pop out a settler without needing a worker to improve tiles. In such a case, the elder councils compensates for the lack of from forest, while at the same time taking advantage of the extra from forests.

Ah right, I see what you mean. Makes sense now.

 

[Zechnophobe]

The difference is really in if you are focusing on a production start, to expand quickly, or a tech start to get to key things in the tree.

Chirp, for instance, go for the former, even with their masonry modification. They can pile on production buffs fairly early on with their world spell, but get fairly negligible tech bumps, whereas elves can consistently cottage spam.

 

[Micky Onimusha]

The difference is really in if you are focusing on a production start, to expand quickly, or a tech start to get to key things in the tree.

Chirp, for instance, go for the former, even with their masonry modification. They can pile on production buffs fairly early on with their world spell, but get fairly negligible tech bumps, whereas elves can consistently cottage spam.

So with the likes of Keelyn, it's better to pump out a worker and get a hold of key improvement techs (Mining, Anim Husb, etc) then?

Also, on World Spells, what's the "timing" thoughts on them. Like with the aforementioned Chirp, should it be a quick off the bat thing or when the core empire's fully settled? Particularly wondering with the Balserapths, since it's a one-off Golden Age, so I could see it being valuable for a good early burst and a late one.

Also, just on a general wondering thing. What are the "traditional" maps people play with usually? Just so I know in what context to be taking this advise. I've been flicking through all sorts of maps. Ones with a big sea emphasis like Continents/Hemispheres, land-based ones like Pangea and really land-locked ones like Lakes/Highlands/Oasis (I do quite like how Highlands comes with lots of chokepoints but I hate how much forests it starts with). I tried the Erebus map but I kept getting jungle starts and eventually stopped with it. I'm thinking maybe I should play on Shuffle, just to add an extra layer to the gameplay by not knowing what kind of world I'll be stuck with.

 

[Zechnophobe]

I've a lot of experience with the Chirp so I'll start there. The world spell used to be castable on turn 1, and allow you to get a great engineer on turn 25, and turn 75 (Turn 25 one is great for settling for a huge prod bonus, or for beakers, or even better, to insta build Pact of Nilhorn).

However, now you require Masonry to use the spell, meaning you won't be doing it right away, and in fact, maybe not for a while. I'm rather of the opinion you want to get a second city first before using it, and then settle both hammers in one city, since it is double the effect of the spell, and getting your second city can be a good priority. However, I'm not nearly as certain.

As for Revelry, the Belseraph world spell, you can't cast it until you research Festivals, so I'd think really hard about how you are going to do it. Make sure you are taking as much advantage of a 24 turn golden age as possible before cast. Do you have a Great Person Farm? Are your cities in a position where they produce good income and production? Golden Aging two cities will net you a very specific amount of Hammers and Trade over the course of those 24 turns, because they will likely not grow much during the period.

I generally find Revelry is great to use right *after* I've taken out my first foe (And the cities are no longer in revolt). These newly conquered cities are often having a high population, but need to get buildings under them to become efficient... the perfect time to get a big boost in production. Also, the income bonus will keep your economy stable while you pay the maintenance of these new cities.

 

[Micky Onimusha]

Thank you for the insight Zechnophobe. In both scenarios, you speak about taking out a neighbour however. Is this a priority in all/most games? To launch an early war against a neighbour and take their cities/land/etc?

I'm just wondering, I've never been one to effectively launch an early attack to be honest. If it is a "most games" priority, I was hoping to get a bit more insight on how that's done.

 

[Zechnophobe]

I generally like to take out neighbor's fairly early on, but it does obviously depend on your situation. Consider, for instance, the cost of a settler: 220 Production (Food + Hammers). This is the equivalent of about 9 warriors (225 production). 9 Warriors early on will take out an enemy city, perhaps even an empire, and those cities already have population above 1, and possibly buildings and improved lands. If they are close cities, the maintenance may not be that much more than if you'd settled a new city yourself.

That's really my standpoint. Early conquest = fast growth.

You also have the buffer of a military. If Charadon attacks you early on, or a stronger than normal barbarian wave hits you, it turns into good experience for your troops, instead of something that could set your civ back a while. Very rarely do you ever go 'oh crap, I lose because I didn't perfect my lands well enough' whereas you DO go "Oh crap, I lost because I didn't protect my lands well enough'.

 

[Zechnophobe]

For a quick example of the game I'm playing right now, which is actually with the svartalfar, I've attached the initial save, and the turn 101 save. At the second save I've conquered the Good elves, and took a city from Charadon, before getting peace from him.

I attacked Thessa with an army of like 4 warriors and 4 sinister scouts. Once I upgrade the scouts to hunters, I'll take out charadon, most likely. I went to peace because I'm about to get Fellowship of the leaves, and worker spamming will likely pay off big... which means I don't want to worry about stacks of Axemen on my borders.

Tech wise I got Calender then Ancient Chants then mysticism, then went for education. Calender was perfect because I started near some nice calender resources. Mysticism let me fight off the nearby Ljosalfar with a strong production base.

The plan at this point is to get FoL, shift to GoN, pick up poisons for Alazkan the Terminator, and expand both my tile yields and my territory at the same time.

 

[nealhunt]

In general, I'd say food is of paramount importance. More population means more tiles worked or specialists run and that is the ultimate key to the early game. Getting to your happiness cap quickly will make a huge amount of difference in your ability to produce everything.

Second is getting an economic system into place. You'll need to build or capture more cities and those cost money. In FFH, there are a few major techniques, which have more or less been outlined above:

1) Mysticism for God King and Elder Councils/Pagan Temples (sage and/or priest specialists)
2) Festivals for Marketplaces (merchant specialists)
3) Education for cottages

Personally, I prefer an early specialist economy. A settled GP and/or an Academy in your capital will jump-start a game in a big way. For example, a God King capital with an Academy is producing 2.25x normal research which is huge when it's still providing the vast majority of your commerce.

There are also a few economic alternatives if you have unusual starts:

4) Mining gold and gems
5) Plantations if you have non-wooded/non-jungle calendar resources (plus Calendar is on the way to Festivals for #2 above)
5a) Calendar + Bronze if you have a lot of wooded resources can provide some economy and a good early military but it's noticeably slower than an early rush like Zechno is describing

Later on that will need to be supplemented. The choices become increasingly diverse, obviously, but while still fairly early in the game there are several relatively easily obtained supplemental strats.

1) More of the same. The basic ones all work for a while (but not the specialized starts).

2) Found RoK (or follow it). Just RoK presence in the city grants +1 gold. A production civ can last a very long time on just Markets and RoK Temples because those provide fixed incomes. Even if you don't want to spend the resources on Temples early, a Market + RoK is still +3 gold.

3) Trade. Trade routes can be added with several early-mid techs. The sailing branch provides lighthouses (+1 route), harbors (+50% route income) and the Great Lighthouse (+2 routes per coastal city) if you can build it. Picking up Trade and Currency in the mid game can provide decent boosts as well. Since they add routes on a per-city basis, they are especially good if you've gone for a REX, quantity-over-quality style expansion.

4) City states. Not so much an increase in econ as a serious reduction in maintenance. It's great for picking off an early rival whose main area of control is likely pretty far away. Head for Cartography while your arm is en route and switch once you have the enemy territory secured (get the benefits - avoid the war weariness from City States).


The best start and follow on supplement is going to be a call based on the available techs and resources. For Balseraphs the run through Calendar and Festivals is often optimum. It opens up Balseraph abilities quite nicely in addition to the normal population and econ advantages available to everyone.

 

[Micky Onimusha]

I never really thought about it from a Settler Hammers vs Warrior Hammers point of view. I'll have to try an aggressive start, as opposed to the peaceful ones I usually begin with. Also, Sinister Scouts interest me. Initially I tried out the Svartalfar out of novelty (to me they're a new civ, since they weren't in 0.23), but I quite like how their Scouts start out with such good offence.

I'll also have to try out those economic routes, thanks Nealhunt. It sounds like I underestimate trade-routes value too.

 

[Mailbox]

For example, a God King capital with an Academy is producing 2.25x normal research which is huge when it's still providing the vast majority of your commerce.

Not quite, God King boosts gold instead of commerce. Which makes settling a GP produce 7.5 and 3 .

 

[nealhunt]

Not quite, God King boosts gold instead of commerce. Which makes settling a GP produce 7.5 and 3 .

So, God King isn't a Bureaucracy clone any more? I suppose that makes it more balanced... Well, that's what I get for not playing for a long time.

Does it still multiply the base production/gold like Bureaucracy or is it just additive like the other bonuses? Because if it multiplies that really makes the idea of founding a religion before the first city very appealing. Holy city capital with +50% for GK multiplied by +150% for Mammon, Tax Collector and Money Changer would be ridiculous.

 

[Mailbox]

It boosts Holy City income, and makes God King very attractive for a long time if you either found your religion before your first city or just move your capital to your holy city after the founding. +200% gold is disgusting, especially in a cottage spammed holy city.

 

[Zechnophobe]

So, God King isn't a Bureaucracy clone any more? I suppose that makes it more balanced... Well, that's what I get for not playing for a long time.

I hate to say it, but as long as I've been playing the game, God king only effected income, and not commerce.

Another thing to consider is the effects of Aristocracy + Sanitation + Agrarianism.

I've been doing the numbers on this recently, and am considering the advantages of the ~all cottage economy to the ~all farm economy. The Farms under Aristocracy actually end up being a good deal faster, because they provide food, which lets you grow and work more tiles, which in turn produce good 'right off the bat yield'.

I'm still unsure of how completely effective this is, but it is at least something to consider for some civ's (I'm rather wanting to try it with the elves because while they don't get Aggrarianism, they do get Ancient forests which are even better.

 

[EmptyWolf]

Another thing to consider is the effects of Aristocracy + Sanitation + Agrarianism.

I've been doing the numbers on this recently, and am considering the advantages of the ~all cottage economy to the ~all farm economy. The Farms under Aristocracy actually end up being a good deal faster, because they provide food, which lets you grow and work more tiles, which in turn produce good 'right off the bat yield'.

The other very useful aspect of a pure farm economy is the conquest civic.
Every (developed) city becomes a unit spamming factory.

Are there any threads with detailed FFH comparisons of cottage economy vs. farm economy?

 

[Turinturambar]

The other very useful aspect of a pure farm economy is the conquest civic.
Every (developed) city becomes a unit spamming factory.

Are there any threads with detailed FFH comparisons of cottage economy vs. farm economy?

You don't really need a detailed comparison. Cottages are only useful in the very early game with a low happy cap (Unless you are Kuriotates/Bannor/Elves of course).

You want to switch very quickly to a pure farm economy with aristocracy/slavery/agrarianism/religion. Massive production from slavery, massive growth from +2 farms(with sanitation) and massive commerce from aristiocracy. Religion should provide the big happiness boosts needed. Additionally your larger cities pull in more income from trade routes.

No combination of civics/techs/ leader traits can make a cottage economy remotely competitive.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Except that to run aristocracy you have to give up either god king or city states, which is always a horrible idea (you want GK for a small empire and CS for a big one), matured cottages very quickly overtake aristocracy farms for commerce, slavery blows ass in this mod since hammer costs are a lot higher than in vanilla, and massive growth can be gotten with like 3 grassland farms, assuming sanitation + agrarianism + no aristocracy. The compensation for all this? Specialists. But sages can't be spammed till Arcane Lore, you have 2 sage slots and 1 merchant slot until then.

You want some farms in all cities, but commerce cities should always start with a couple farms then go all cottages. Once you get to Arcane Lore, you might want to consider farming over everything if you haven't gotten Taxation yet - but that should never, ever happen because Taxation's other benefits are so much better than Arcane Lore's.

 

[Turinturambar]

Except that to run aristocracy you have to give up either god king or city states, which is always a horrible idea (you want GK for a small empire and CS for a big one)

Given that in my current deity game switching to city states would save me ~150 commerce in maintenance cost with 27 cities, staying in aristocracy making ~1,8k beakers/turn without Scholarship does not seem to be such a horrible idea.

, matured cottages very quickly overtake aristocracy farms for commerce,

Sure after about ~35 turns you have your town, which nets you 4 commerce(5 with taxation). I'd rather have a +2 food+2commerce farm, which is simply better right from turn 1.

slavery blows ass in this mod since hammer costs are a lot higher than in vanilla,

Apparently so does working mines/using engineers and everything else which produces hammers. See the fault in your argument yet? The only argument for a less effective slavery would be the less effective granary, but the abundance of food more than makes up for it. Not to mention the free slaves you get.

Slavery really is the key to the farm economy. If you don't understand the power of slavery I could understand why the farm economy seems less appealing.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Given that in my current deity game switching to city states would save me ~150 commerce in maintenance cost with 27 cities, staying in aristocracy making ~1,8k beakers/turn without Scholarship does not seem to be such a horrible idea.

Well, obviously, it's too late for you to switch out of aristocracy, since you've built your economy around it. The farm economy is definitely not the only way to put up numbers like that, though.

Sure after about ~35 turns you have your town, which nets you 4 commerce(5 with taxation). I'd rather have a +2 food+2commerce farm, which is simply better right from turn 1.

You can only work so many of those farms due to happiness caps. Until scholarship, there's a point where all that extra food goes mostly to waste. It's easy to work as many cottages by using farms to get through the early growth stages. And they're equal at producing commerce to aristocracy farms after 5 turns, better after 15.

Apparently so does working mines/using engineers and everything else which produces hammers. See the fault in your argument yet? The only argument for a less effective slavery would be the less effective granary, but the abundance of food more than makes up for it. Not to mention the free slaves you get.

Slavery really is the key to the farm economy. If you don't understand the power of slavery I could understand why the farm economy seems less appealing.

Occasionally you can whip something with the excess food, but... it just kills so many people in FfH to whip anything worth having. I'll take the extra commerce from having villages/towns and the ability to run a different civic, like Apprenticeship or caste system, over the ability to occasionally whip something without losing worked tiles.

As for conventional hammer sources like mines and engineers... the abundance of food means they're essentially buffed to match the higher hammer costs, unlike slavery which gives the same returns for 1 pop whipped. A conventional production city in FfH doesn't lose much time building stuff compared to one in BtS because of this - but a slavery based one kills a lot more population. And because of the larger populations, it takes more food to regrow.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

To summarize all this for the person who asked:

Start cities out with farms to build a population base in your cities, then use either cottages or hammer improvements depending on what you want the city to do. The farm-boosting civic, aristocracy, has too much stiff competition to be worthwhile. Use farms, but not exclusively. Working improved tiles and having a labor civic with a passive boost is too valuable for slavery to be worth it.

 

[EmptyWolf]

You don't really need a detailed comparison. Cottages are only useful in the very early game with a low happy cap (Unless you are Kuriotates/Bannor/Elves of course).

I was thinking more along the lines of the vannila/bts threads of Specialist Economy vs. Cottage Economy filled with number crunching, but for FFH.

The farm-boosting civic, aristocracy, has too much stiff competition to be worthwhile. Use farms, but not exclusively

There are exceptions to that such as Ljosalfar farm spamming [lots of specialists and mega cities at the same time], and Illian farms which don't lose any hammers from agrarianism due to Illians only having +2 ice tiles. There's also Calabim which can be argued are most powerful with pure farms under Flauros for the reasons of financial making every farm +3 , and also far more ideal for feeding vampires than cottaged tiles.

With the recent -40% maintenance boost to aristocracy combined with +2 on farms it can compete against both god-king and city states if managed carefully but shines most when it's paired with agrarianism and to a lesser extent, conquest during war. Slavery and drafting also work best with pure farm economy since the population returns much faster than it would under a cottage economy.

Another small but useful advantage of farms is if they are pillaged, it's only a few turns to get the farm back. A town takes very long to grow back.