Early wins and Techs..

[Shad77]

I'm still working on trying to understand how you guys get such early wins and techs. I know trading is very important, but I'm missing something in the micromanagment of cities. I also know that an early switch to Rep is important. Any other tips to speed up the tech race (trust me I can slow it down if needed).

Also, I know some people use cities as farms for tax or science.. I'm yuet to really see much gain from that.. again, any ideas?

And thanks in advance, I've learned a lot from reading the stuff the better players post.

 

[Bucephalus]

I'm going to hazard a guess, and say that you are probably not building enough workers; the result of that, is that your citizens will be working unimproved tiles, and those tiles are not contributing gold to your economy. This is probably the #1 mistake that inexperienced players make.

#2 is settling cities too far apart; this results in many squares in your territory not being worked and taken advantage of.

I suggest posting a save from one of your games for a more in-depth analysis.

 

[Shad77]

I'm going to hazard a guess, and say that you are probably not building enough workers; the result of that, is that your citizens will be working unimproved tiles, and those tiles are not contributing gold to your economy. This is probably the #1 mistake that inexperienced players make.

#2 is settling cities too far apart; this results in many squares in your territory not being worked and taken advantage of.

I suggest posting a save from one of your games for a more in-depth analysis.

No doubt you're correct on both points. I just cannot force myself to go CXXC or CXXXC...I WANT BIG CITIES. Even though I know it slows me down.

 

[Spoonwood]

Shad77,

If you don't like CxxC or CxxxC, then don't go that way. With a full CxxxxC the biggest problem as far as I see it comes as that there exist squares which don't lie within the fat X of any of your cities (CxxC and CxxxC players often have some of these too, and I don't get it) or "gaps" for short. *Use those squares at some point in the game* So, if you want the full CxxxxC, space your cities as CxxxxC first and then put cities on those "gaps" and name them "camps" or something so you know they won't become full-sized metro cities. Remember, no city can grow above size 12 pre-Sanitation/Shake's, so you may as well use those squares for more commerce, more military (to short-rush hospitals even via disbandonment), more workers, etc. Then, once you have Sanitation abandon these cities if you want full-sized metros. Or you can go with CxCxxC and then abandoned the middle C when you have Sanitation and/or hospitals. Sound good?

Concerning early wins and techs, some of this will vary with difficulty and victory condition. On lower levels things like popping huts for techs and researching cheap techs in the ancient age seems key for the best finish dates around for diplo/space games. On upper levels less so, but instead getting the AI to do more research for you (read trading) seems helpful. On any level playing as scientific and having a good number of scientific opponents makes a difference.

 

[Snarkhunter]

So, if you want the full CxxxxC, space your cities as CxxxxC first and then put cities on those "gaps" and name them "camps" or something so you know they won't become full-sized metro cities. . . . Then, once you have Sanitation abandon these cities if you want full-sized metros. Or you can go with CxCxxC and then abandoned the middle C when you have Sanitation and/or hospitals. Sound good?

Since this is a compound interest expansion, I'd hazard it's even more efficient to establish the "gap" towns first along the way to CxxxxC--you might even find the "gap" towns to be more valuable after a while. And, there's no reason to abandon them once you go metro, as those tiles by definition can never be worked by any other cities. It's true you would have to micromanage the growth more this way, but what the hay?

Of course, in all this, map peculiarities usually trump settlement schemes; few rigid schemes survive their contact with the map

kk

 

[Shad77]

Since this is a compound interest expansion, I'd hazard it's even more efficient to establish the "gap" towns first along the way to CxxxxC--you might even find the "gap" towns to be more valuable after a while. And, there's no reason to abandon them once you go metro, as those tiles by definition can never be worked by any other cities. It's true you would have to micromanage the growth more this way, but what the hay?

Of course, in all this, map peculiarities usually trump settlement schemes; few rigid schemes survive their contact with the map

kk

Thats a great point and a question I have been meaning to ask: Is it better to stay with a "rigid" CxxxC ( or whatever) if that means for example missing a river or other bonus? Or would it be better to move just one more tile and land on a river?

 

[Snarkhunter]

Thats a great point and a question I have been meaning to ask: Is it better to stay with a "rigid" CxxxC ( or whatever) if that means for example missing a river or other bonus? Or would it be better to move just one more tile and land on a river?

I think most of us would displace to pick up a river, resource, or other goodie. Those of us who favor CxxC realize that it's very difficult to come up with schemes to work 12 tiles for each city that way, so an excuse to loosen up a little, at least in the core, is welcome.

In the farmlands, it's a different story. You really don't care a whole lot about freshwater, just spam-slam in the cities as close as you can to get those beaker/gold harvests going. In the intermediate areas, I'll still displace most of the time.

City placement's an art. I don't pretend to have it solved.

kk

 

[capnvonbaron]

I think most of us would displace to pick up a river, resource, or other goodie. Those of us who favor CxxC realize that it's very difficult to come up with schemes to work 12 tiles for each city that way, so an excuse to loosen up a little, at least in the core, is welcome.

In the farmlands, it's a different story. You really don't care a whole lot about freshwater, just spam-slam in the cities as close as you can to get those beaker/gold harvests going. In the intermediate areas, I'll still displace most of the time.

City placement's an art. I don't pretend to have it solved.

kk

Not long ago I used to be in the same boat as you, Shad, but I've come to like the CxxC grouping a LOT. I will admit, though, that my city layout is not even close to rigid. My spacing is, on average, something more like CxxCxxxC. My main goal is that each city is at least CxxC from two other cities, such that I can move units between them in a chain all the way through the early IA. I tend to leave bigger gaps around hard-to-work or non-growth terrain like desert, jungles and mountains (which, once I clear away the jungle, I will try and fill in some). I try to get my cities on fresh water whenever possible early, but relax on that a bit once aqueducts become available.

In short, Shad, the main reason for the CxxC spacing is to have a strong growth and defensive potential in the AA, where it is most important. It will snowball into the MA and IA and make your later game go a lot better. As stated before, your cities cannot grow above 12 until sanitation, and as for me (and most advanced players) the beeline to replaceable parts is FAR more essential than medicine -> sanitation and will suck up dozens more turns where CxxC retains its usefulness. So why not use the closer spacing before then and take advantage of every spot of terrain you can?? As proof-of-concept, before I started CxxC spacing, regent was a tough gig. Now I compete at Monarchy level often without struggling at all (last night I netted a lousy plains/hills/no-fresh-water/boxed-in-by-four-AIs start with the Persians, but still pulled out a 1000AD conquer VC) I still have yet to have a happy Emporer game, but that has more to do with my refusal to micro-manage

EDIT: Ok, to be fair (and before you pros pick on me), the close proxy of the AI probably helped my early VC with the Persians, as I was able to secure iron and spam Immortals out extremely early. Since I had close borders, the immos were easy to get to the front, and I had wiped out all the civs on my continent before 0BC. This allowed me to REx out, get some boats built, and go after the other continent (which, being smaller and with fewer civs, and never having met anyone on my continent before I destroyed them all, was extremely tech backwards). In short, its all about knowing and playing the strengths of the map and your civ, too, something that is hard to teach and must be learned through experience.

 

[Spoonwood]

and as for me (and most advanced players) the beeline to replaceable parts is FAR more essential than medicine -> sanitation and will suck up dozens more turns where CxxC retains its usefulness.

Ahem.... I can't really remember when I actually researched Replacable Parts. Most "advanced" players I think would concede that in most fast tech paced games (diplo/space/20k victory condition, conquest/domination perhaps... but it seems like many "advanced" players don't even get to replacable parts before they win, unless playing at a very high level) at probably even Monarch level, beelining it rarely makes sense, since you can get some AI to research it for you. It can make sense for its military benefits, but that's about it. On the other point, I do seem more rare in that I actually think going Medicine-Sanitation (or just Sanitation) actually works out better in at least *some* fast tech paced games *even with* a tight city spacing.

On the other note... I think (almost) everyone would agree that terrain considerations matter more than city spacing schemes. Founding on/near luxuries, close to forests, intelligent placement of coastal cities, founding on rivers, etc. matters most.

Hey... that was my 1000th post!

 

[capnvonbaron]

WOO! Millennium mark!

...but it seems like many "advanced" players don't even get to replacable parts before they win, unless playing at a very high level) at probably even Monarch level, beelining it rarely makes sense, since you can get some AI to research it for you.

Ok, so that may be, but I like to get to rep. parts for two reasons. One, the increased worker speed, and two, access to infantry so I can gather a nice arty/inf/cavalry army and pummel some other civ into submission or non-existence before they get metros and vet rifles built up. I'll then research toward motor trans and trade something stupid like corporation backwards for medicine and sanitation. The result is that if I want to go for conquer/domination, I (usually) do it with tanks and infantry armies. So maybe I'll edit and say "mid-level" players and not "advanced" players I'm still continuously modifying and perfecting my play-style, admittedly. In any case, I'm still confused as to how some players get such early 20Ks and space VCs, which I guess demerits me to that "mid-level" status

 

[Spoonwood]

Maybe I should table this to a HoF discussion, but here goes:

Early 20ks rely on starting positions which can grow fast and have high shield production at size 12 and/or early SGLs, as well as picking the right wonders to build first and researching accordingly. Fast lower level 20k games also seem to have a maximum of scientific opponents (check the HoF saves), while upper level 20k games have a minimum of non-scientific, non-alphabetic weak opponents. Sanabas has an article in the HoF threads called "the idiot's guide to 20k" which explains some of this. In short early 20k games work mostly about the 1000 year bonus (hence early SGLs, such as via Ceremonial Burial can make a HUGE difference). An early Heroic Epic helps a lot also, as does ivory (for the Statue of Zeus). Oh, "vanilla 4evr". Yeah... in Vanilla, which I don't play, but as I understand it, people try to MGL farm... they pretty much stay constantly at war and rush wonders via MGLs. There doesn't exist a Statue of Zeus (which helps a lot), and from what I understand you can't get as many early MGLs as you can early SGLs, so Vanilla almost always ends up slower for a 20k game. There's also no Seafaring trait, so Sanabas's ideas don't work out as well. Poor Vanilla.

Early SS games use a lot of scientific opponents on any level. On lower levels they seem to tend to use sedentary barbarians for hut popping, as I indicated above. There's an article about "free techs" or something like that in the War Academy by DaveMcW which explains how to use "what's the big picture" to pull a second-level tech as your free tech if you play as scientific. That trick often gets used in fast SS games. There's a Regent level SS game for the gauntlet currently, as well as other notes in the HoF write-ups to explain how to get fast SS games. Sometimes these games also have an SGL for The Pyramids early on, which again you can't do in Vanilla, and I it works out harder to spawn an MGL.

 

[Ringo Kid]

For a change sometime, try beelining to flight first, then cranking out a couple dozen bombers and a mess of cavalry if you dont already have a mess of them.

That combination of of firepower and speed is awesome if you concentrate it on one target at a time. Infantry and artillery are as powerful, but they lack the speed of maneuver of cavalry and aircraft. You capture territory so much faster that way that the defensive superiority of the infantry doesnt matter - and as the saying goes; the best defense is a great offense.

 

[Ringo Kid]

On the other note... I think (almost) everyone would agree that terrain considerations matter more than city spacing schemes. Founding on/near luxuries, close to forests, intelligent placement of coastal cities, founding on rivers, etc. matters most.

I agree.. Grabbing the largest chunk of the map fastest is what really matters - and city spacing matters only in so far as it supports the real estate grab ie rapid expansion. So for example a food bonus trumps spacing considerations because it speeds growth. For a military win though all you need for tech really is a civ with an early powerful UU like the Iroquois Mounted Warrior, and Monarchy so you can produce military units faster. At that point you can turn the science slider all the way down , use your cash to rush build MW's, and forget the tech tree altogether. Everything depends on what type of win you are going for really.

 

[Spoonwood]

Ringo_Kid,

Beelining to Flight no doubt makes sense for a whole heck of games and no doubt makes for a lot of fun. But, it'll have minimal uses for an early conquest win for a variety of reasons. For early wins Diplo/SS wins since 1. the AI can research it for you if they have any research power and 2. it costs so much to research early... later on you'll almost surely have more science to research it faster if you need to do so, so I don't see how beeling it makes sense for "early wins". I don't mean this as criticism, just a clarification for this thread.

 

[Optional]

I tend to leave bigger gaps around hard-to-work or non-growth terrain like desert, jungles and mountains (which, once I clear away the jungle, I will try and fill in some).

Funny thing is that I might do the opposite. I will try and leave jungle terrain alone at first, but if I start settling there, I will space a bit closer. Every jungle tile settled on is automatically improved, and big gaps between jungle towns makes them difficult to defend, as it'll take some time before everything's roaded.
If there are floodplains I will also space a bit closer, because those towns can grow big, even with tight spacing.
As far as settling in general is concerned, I start with spacing pretty wide, to claim as much as I can claim, and occasionally I'll fill in a gap later, but not always. In my games you'll see CxxxxxC, CxC, and everything inbetween.

About the Replaceable Parts discussion: I beeline to that, especially for the worker speed, hoping that the AI will research Sanitation for me - in vain in my last game, where the AI chose Espionage, Communism, Fascism, Nationalism and Military Tradition before Sanitation. I never built a hospital there, before I got my diplomatic victory.

 

[Ringo Kid]

For early wins Diplo/SS wins since 1. the AI can research it for you if they have any research power and 2. it costs so much to research early... later on you'll almost surely have more science to research it faster....

Spoonwood, Why would it matter for trading? Could'nt you trade flight and its prerequisites in the same way you would do for Replaceable Parts?

 

[capnvonbaron]

Funny thing is that I might do the opposite. I will try and leave jungle terrain alone at first, but if I start settling there, I will space a bit closer. Every jungle tile settled on is automatically improved, and big gaps between jungle towns makes them difficult to defend, as it'll take some time before everything's roaded.
If there are floodplains I will also space a bit closer, because those towns can grow big, even with tight spacing.
As far as settling in general is concerned, I start with spacing pretty wide, to claim as much as I can claim, and occasionally I'll fill in a gap later, but not always. In my games you'll see CxxxxxC, CxC, and everything inbetween.

About the Replaceable Parts discussion: I beeline to that, especially for the worker speed, hoping that the AI will research Sanitation for me - in vain in my last game, where the AI chose Espionage, Communism, Fascism, Nationalism and Military Tradition before Sanitation. I never built a hospital there, before I got my diplomatic victory.

True with jungles... I guess it depends on AI proxy and where your core is. I try and stay out of them until later in the game too. I think the close spacing around floodplains goes without saying And yeah, the AI seems flaky about researching that lower tier of the IA tech tree. Sometimes they get to it quick, other games it seems like every civ individually researches the nat'lism->esp->commi before getting to ANYthing else.

Regarding flight... interesting. I guess I don't use bombers much due to lack of lethal bombard in vanilla. They're also a pain to rebase all the time as the front moves, esp when the AI has sloppy, widely spaced cities. I just prefer death-stacks of arty/inf and combat workers to rail enemy roads so it all can keep up with cavs. Admittedly, the last two conquering games I completed were done before I even got to the IA anyways, so its kinda moot

 

[Spoonwood]

Spoonwood, Why would it matter for trading? Could'nt you trade flight and its prerequisites in the same way you would do for Replaceable Parts?

Not sure if I understand you here. Look, the AIs like to research Flight, as well as Replacable Parts. So, *provided that* the AIs can do some research, when you learn Combustion you can gift them to Combustion and let them reserach Flight for you and then trade *for* it. Replacable Parts works as a bit more tricky, since you might not want them to have Electricity too soon to keep them away from the Scientific Method, depending on when you want to build it.

 

[Ringo Kid]

My point is that if I am picking which weapon I want to have first, its the bomber, because I think its more powerful than infantry. But that doesnt take into account which tech the AI wants more, its just my personal preference.