Easy Hidden Nationality Attack by...

[Beloyar]

There should be plenty of ways to attack without revealing nationality. In the real world, you can sink a transport or passenger ship by submarine without anyone finding out who is responsible.
Also, you can launch a missile from a submerged sub and no one will know whose sub it was.
This, of course, requires progressive civs to keep tabs on others who have the technology to develop and build such weapons.
It would be imperative to have national leaders who you trust not to attack you, while at the same time have some means to track the origin of attack and eventually (not immediately) find out who was responsible.

 

[socralynnek]

Maybe such attacks can have a small chance of being identified, because sometimes the others find out who it was...

 

[Beloyar]

If a civ repeatedly attacks with subs and/or missiles, it will be found out faster. But if it happened once or twice it would be hard.

 

[Beloyar]

Any comments? Yay, Nay?

 

[Punkymonkey]

I don't see why Guerilla units shouldn't have hidden nationality. Maybe make a weaker unit with 4/6/1 or 6/4/1, so you can use them to pillage the improvements of your neighbors you don't like. As for you Beloyar, I don't know how the AI would react to be given free reins to attack you. Too much room for abuse. I think one land unit in industrial and modern times with an attack or defense lowered from the regular guerilla unit.

 

[LOVE_Magiska]

Thing is, the AI uses hidden nationality units to steal workers, so one would either have to limit their movement, or untick the "Capture" flag.

 

[rcoutme]

I don't see why Guerilla units shouldn't have hidden nationality.

IIRC, either Padma or Chieftess was a playtester and said that this was tried out. The problem with hidden land units is that when you have a MPP with another nation, you bunch a whole lot of 'hidden nationality' units under one of your 'legitimate' units and pillage the hell out of the civ with whom you have the MPP. Thus it ends up being no fun.

In order to have hidden nationality land units, they would have to create a system where the units were not allowed to stack with legitimate units.

The other problem (in Civ3 at least, since you can, in fact, create these in the editor) is that the AI knows the nationality of every unit, along with its location. This creates several problems. 1. Human player subs are visible to AI players at all times. 2. Attacks from privateers cause the player to get a ding on his AI attitude with the victim nation. 3. Subs can be bombarded by artillery, battleships and aircraft by the AI even if they don't have any units capable of seeing the sub. 4. Creating a stealth land unit that is used similar to CTP spies is useless against AI opponents.

 

[Beloyar]

Thing is, the AI uses hidden nationality units to steal workers, so one would either have to limit their movement, or untick the "Capture" flag.

Wait. What? Where did you get this idea? Is this in C3C?
If a hidden nationality land unit captures workers, its nationality is revealed by the color of captured workers.

I don't know if that's such a good idea. Hid. Nat. land units should be used for other missions, like pillaging and destroying specific buildings in cities (precision strikes). Stuff like that.

I prefer subs and missiles.

 

[Beloyar]

IIRC, either Padma or Chieftess was a playtester and said that this was tried out. The problem with hidden land units is that when you have a MPP with another nation, you bunch a whole lot of 'hidden nationality' units under one of your 'legitimate' units and pillage the hell out of the civ with whom you have the MPP. Thus it ends up being no fun.

In order to have hidden nationality land units, they would have to create a system where the units were not allowed to stack with legitimate units.

The other problem (in Civ3 at least, since you can, in fact, create these in the editor) is that the AI knows the nationality of every unit, along with its location. This creates several problems. 1. Human player subs are visible to AI players at all times. 2. Attacks from privateers cause the player to get a ding on his AI attitude with the victim nation. 3. Subs can be bombarded by artillery, battleships and aircraft by the AI even if they don't have any units capable of seeing the sub. 4. Creating a stealth land unit that is used similar to CTP spies is useless against AI opponents.

Yeah, I noticed these things too. I really hate that:
1. Human player subs are visible to AI players at all times.
2. Attacks from privateers cause the player to get a ding on his AI attitude with the victim nation.
3. Subs can be bombarded by artillery, battleships and aircraft by the AI even if they don't have any units capable of seeing the sub.
4. Creating a stealth land unit that is used similar to CTP spies is useless against AI opponents.

I will also add that AI knows how many units you have stacked in each of your cities at all times. In war, it will know to attack the least defended city even if it is farther away.

Also, if you stack HD unit with legit land unit, AI will attack it but be fighting your legit unit without starting a war.

 

[LOVE_Magiska]

Wait. What? Where did you get this idea? Is this in C3C?
If a hidden nationality land unit captures workers, its nationality is revealed by the color of captured workers.

Yeah, I tried this out in a previous incarnation of my mod, ( 3mp guerillas with hid. nat), and it was a complete nightmare. Your AI "allies" would send hordes of them into your territory, capturing workers and pillaging important roads, and the only way to recapture your own workers was to use one of your own guerilla units. The AI also seems to be able to capture cities with hid. nat. units, even when you're not at war, which needless to say caused quite a lot of problems.

 

[Beloyar]

Yeah, I tried this out in a previous incarnation of my mod, ( 3mp guerillas with hid. nat), and it was a complete nightmare. Your AI "allies" would send hordes of them into your territory, capturing workers and pillaging important roads, and the only way to recapture your own workers was to use one of your own guerilla units. The AI also seems to be able to capture cities with hid. nat. units, even when you're not at war, which needless to say caused quite a lot of problems.

Ok, I understand now. That's why I never considered hid nat land units. I can't base it on anything historically. The best thing is submarines and missiles on them.
AI should be configured not to go bonkers and start using subs against any target it wants, but only against certain civs and for a reason.

 

[Punkymonkey]

Maybe you have to defend your borders then and give the guerillas poor defense. Since they are hidden nationality they wouldn't be equipped with the best weapons and have a poor offensive capability. They could be used primarily for sabotage and slowing down the enemy. Also give them a chance of retreating and extra mov't in forest, jungle and marsh. To prevent against abuses maybe a certain treaty can prevent the enemy of sending in guerilllas or something. I understand it needs to be worked out better but it's plausible

 

[AdHHH]

i think a lot of the HN 'problem' would be resolved if barbarian tribes were allowed to evolve past warriors/horseman, as they could then act as bandits, attacking other Civs.

 

[BassDude726]

Can the AI really know all that stuff about your military? I never knew that. It doesn't seem fair at all. Why isn't that a bigger topic of controversy?