Echoes of Earth: A total conversion for BERT

Yeah, I have to say the initial energy problems are insane when one approaches the game the way one would approach the unmodded game. I find this to be a good thing though, in the 2 games I started so far Energy was an active concern, but one that was manageable with some investment. This is how it should be, it's something to put thought in, something to figure out how to solve with as little investment as possible.

I do however think it's quite a trap for people who are new to the mod, it might drive away a lot of people after their first attempt. I think adding some sort of warning to keep more of an eye on Energy Usage would be very helpful.

Another small thing - and maybe it's just me: I find the tooltips of buildings a little too cluttered. I think an extra [NEWLINE] above the quest decisions (as some buildings already have) to visually separate them from the direct yields and bonuses would be extremely helpful.
 
Ok now that i actually finished my 3rd games (1 on v.4):

I changed my earlier impression on affinity and orbital. There's enough sources of orbital radius and affinity xp around, but both are too concentrated on the end of the tech tree. I spent 2/3 of the game behind the AI in upgrades (3/3/0 against 6/0/0), then once my science got going, i went 4/4/0 to 12/12/0 very fast. The same with culture, took me a long time to get the first horizontal virtue synergy, but suddenly my culture took off and i ended an emancipation victory with 2 and half virtue trees filled up. As for orbital, they feel like end-game tools, too expensive to use effectively early on and all sources of radius that make non-economic satellites viable are buildings on the middle-end part of the tech tree.

Both features are fine, but i think there should be more orbital play early on, and affinities could have distributed a bit more around.
 
I'm on turn 73 on my first playthrough and I haven't gotten any building quests yet. Seems like a bug to me.

EDIT: Of course I just got one on turn 76.
 
For people who have a few games under their belt, is there something you know now that you wish someone had told you before your first game? This can apply to the Energy economy or to other areas.

With respect to the energy economy, what pitfalls have folks experienced? Did the maintenance on Farms blindside them?
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For Trade Routes, what approximate distribution were International vs Domestic (vs Station)? 100% Domestic (except for 2 Stations)? Did it change over the course of the game?
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What turns are people winning their games, and by what victory condition?
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I'll fix the issue with the Mineral Resource not being improvable.
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I spent 2/3 of the game behind the AI in upgrades (3/3/0 against 6/0/0), then once my science got going, i went 4/4/0 to 12/12/0 very fast. The same with culture, took me a long time to get the first horizontal virtue synergy, but suddenly my culture took off and i ended an emancipation victory with 2 and half virtue trees filled up.
Do you have a sense for what let you jet up in Culture? Also, do you remember the turn counts for those points? At least what turn you got victory on? I need turn counts so I can tell if the pacing is off (tech costs too low, Virtues too cheap).
 
For people who have a few games under their belt, is there something you know now that you wish someone had told you before your first game? This can apply to the Energy economy or to other areas.

Energy is an issue. No wait, everything is an issue :) . Energy is hard to come by, culture is hard to get, production is low, food costs money but you gotta pay for it anyway etc. But managing these challenges is sorta fun, gives a kinda "we're on an alien planet suffering energy shortages" vibe, reminds me of alpha centauri. I'm so glad we don't have to pay for unit upgrades.

Also i've settled a few cities not noticing farms couldn't be built in radius, i forgot that they need rivers. Not sure i like that, i miss irrigation tech. Mines are good but the unhealth hurts, is there a way to make improvements only cost maintenance/unhealth if they are being worked? And everything but generators cost energy. Now that i think about it specialists are alot more important, especially to boost the early diplo trait upgrades, which makes food more important, which makes energy more an issue etc.

With respect to the energy economy, what pitfalls have folks experienced? Did the maintenance on Farms blindside them?

I wish they were buildable on ocean and non-rivers, except for that maintenance on them is manageable.

For Trade Routes, what approximate distribution were International vs Domestic (vs Station)? 100% Domestic (except for 2 Stations)? Did it change over the course of the game?

I made mostly internal. International are usually 2e, or 2e2s both ways, they feel really bad. I wonder if we're paying maintenance on trade convoys, if we do then they are hardly worth it.

What turns are people winning their games, and by what victory condition?

My first game i was about to reach mind flower tech on turn 350 i think, but i was so ahead of the AI i quit. Second game, i wanted to go hybrid but i got rushed by every neighbor, couldn't keep with them with affinity levels, and died off on turn 200 or so (i was still very low level, 4/4 or so).

Third game, went Al falah, hybrid again. Got some angry neighbors, fixed my health problems forever by allying AU and getting the +3 health per resource tile early on, emancipation gate and got gangpiled by the AI except my ally, almost lost the gate. I won on turn 430 or so because i didn't rushed. But Al Falah is really strong in your mod, my cities spent a good time on food process and that really helped with growth.

Do you have a sense for what let you jet up in Culture? Also, do you remember the turn counts for those points? At least what turn you got victory on? I need turn counts so I can tell if the pacing is off (tech costs too low, Virtues too cheap)

Early game, when i lost the signal culture, my culture went to zero, but since all but my capital was a water city i didn't noticed. After surviving a few close wars (retaking cities and stuff), i noticed my culture was at zero so i went for 2 techs with cultural buildings and worked some artists specialists (holosuit, can't remember the other), plus a cultural station landed between my cities and i didn't do the quest to destroy it, and i also got the trait for +2 culture per stretegic resource tiles, all that in quick succession. There was also a few quests (+culture from garrison, and +culture from a defensive building), but i had a ton of strategic resources on the sea tbh; there was a city with 5 of them. Being a water empire mostly, my cities went from zero to 8-30 culture in a short time, and virtues started to fly by (i didn't even had a single virtue synergy at the time). Later, i made a few holomatrixes (about 5 total i think), and later still, after the emancipation gate, i focused city process on culture for about 10 turns and, being al falah, i went from 400 to 1200 culture (1 extra every 3 turns). But even without al falah imba skill, i would've still finished with 2 full virtue trees.

I think the jump happened when i decided to actually get some culture. I couldn't before because i spent the first half of the game retaking my cities from the AI. But i had zero culture until then. Since my cities moved around i didn't cared much, but if i was a land empire i don't see how i would survive without border growth, had no energy to buy tiles.

SO i guess the virtues feel cheaper because culture is harder to produce, but once you get a good combination of culture sources going, the trees fill up fast!

I suppose there should be at least one OER-style early game building with a passive yield for when the player / AI is busy with aliens, wars, etc. Having specialists be the only source of culture early on really hurts land empires.
 
In terms of things I like, I really liked diplomatic capital on specialists. That was a great idea. I'm not sure how much I like the restriction on farms though. I felt like all I could build was generators, which though I get the point of, it's nicer to get a choice of what to build.

I also really like the clear distinction you made between ocean and land cities. That added a new strategic element to the game I appreciated. I also liked the strength of sea resources compared to the weakness of the base tiles at the start. That seemed well done to me.

I would like to mention that pacing seemed a bit odd with reference to affinity.. I haven't finished a game yet, but I haven't had any options for affinity gain yet aside from the free level. It seems affinity should be a more central part of the early game considering how important it is to the game as a whole. Also not sure about the affinity perks just giving culture. I get the reasoning behind it, it makes sense theoretically, but practically it doesn't result in the different affinities having different playstyles, which is something I think affinity perks should encourage.
 
Is there something I need to unlock in order to construct Paddocks? I'm trying to build one on top of some Chitin, but I'm not even getting the option for it.
Was there Miasma on the tile? Currently Miasma block all resource based improvements.
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[With respect to International trade routes]I made mostly internal. International are usually 2e, or 2e2s both ways, they feel really bad. I wonder if we're paying maintenance on trade convoys, if we do then they are hardly worth it.
You may already know this, but allying with someone will boost the international trade yields from 2 per building to 3 per building. Observatories, Strategic Resource building and Affinity Resource building all boost international trade routes so a well placed city can get pretty high.

In an older version the Basic Resource buildings also boosted international trade routes. It could get pretty crazy if you got a city with 5+ different resources.
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I'm working on another version that contains a few bug fixes (minerals not being improvable, missing help text for tier 1 defensive buildings), tweaks to the Affinity consumer buildings and a refinement pass on the Affinity Perks. I'm hoping to send it out before this weekend.
 
Have played a few games now, none all the way to the end though. Overall I like the angle of the mod a lot, and find the way that you really need specialists in the starts to be pretty good.

Am a bit concerned about the AI though. Even on higher difficulties it doesn't seem too challenging. Doesn't seem like it handles ocean combat too well, in general just spamming with the starter boats. Maybe this changes as you get closer to winning.

A big question I have is how to handle the Signal? It goes away after 100 turns, but in order to build the laser communication satellite you need it? Exactly how this works could be spelled out a bit more clearly. Also, there's a thing you can build for the contact victory, but it didn't do much when you build it.
 
I just started a second game and I'm not sure how I like the implementation of the signal. It's an interesting idea, it just didn't feel rewarding enough. I never built any of the signal buildings as they didn't feel like they have a big enough reward for the effort. Perhaps reduce the construction cost on them.
 
I've sent out a new version (6) to everyone via PMs. This version is not backwards compatible so don't switch over in the middle of a game. If you didn't get it or you want to become a play tester let me know.

This version contains some big fixes, including the "crappy start" bug, no Explorer Icon and Fake Tuber Icon spam.

Another big game play change is that Resources now provide 1 more yield than before and Strategic and Affinity Resources providing 2 more. World Wonders now all cost 2 Geothermal (as part of the "identity" of Geothermal will be access to Wonders). Affinity Perks have changed some and may change more.

The ramifications of these changes to the early game are tricky to foresee. Previous experiences about feel and pacing may change now that starts and resources provide more yields.
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I've also made some changes to the load screen text. Correct behavior is if you see a tip or story packet no matter what civ you're playing. Incorrect behavior is if you ever see a civ-specific text blurb. There has been a weird inconsistent issue where the load screen text doesn't work correctly. Sometimes dependent on what Civ is chosen. I don't know if the issue is fully fixed so please let me know if you see incorrect behavior.

While the story packets are rough drafts that still need to be fleshed out -- how do folks feel about them? Do they think the load screen stuff should only be tips or only story or is mixing tips and story ok? I understand that with the building quests still missing much of the story aspects can only be evaluated in their potential rather than execution.
 
I'll have to steal that Loadscreen-fix from your mod, that one has really annoyed me for a while.

Also, good timing. With the initial XCOM-Hysteria out of the way I'll have plenty of time to play this time around. :p
 
Starrynite, thanks for catching the missing help text, it is fixed although I may way for a few more fixes before pushing the next version. The actual effect of the Perk is working (its +2 Culture for the Augmentary, aka Supremacy's second Health building).
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Ryika, I'm not sure my "fix" for the load screen is something you'll want to use. I just hard-coded load screen to use my Intro text rather than the normal Civilization specific intros. In the past I tried changing the row in the civilization table but it wouldn't always work despite the database being changed. I figured it was a weird caching issue.
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Also, good timing. With the initial XCOM-Hysteria out of the way I'll have plenty of time to play this time around. :p
My Development work was briefly delayed while I was doing my first run through XCOM2 but is back to normal now. I for one welcome our new shotgun-totting overlords.
 
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Ryika, I'm not sure my "fix" for the load screen is something you'll want to use. I just hard-coded load screen to use my Intro text rather than the normal Civilization specific intros. In the past I tried changing the row in the civilization table but it wouldn't always work despite the database being changed. I figured it was a weird caching issue.
Yes, I looked at the change you made before I made that comment, it's actually quite perfect for what I was trying to do - replacing the Civ-Specific loading screens with general Loading Screens that have a piece of my alternative background story + a tip about the game mechanics.

Though given that the loading screen UI can be modified I may even go a lot further than what I had originally planned. The changes I tried to make to the Loadout-UI files didn't seem to show up at all so I just naively assumed that anything of the pregame-stuff doesn't actually work.

My Development work was briefly delayed while I was doing my first run through XCOM2 but is back to normal now. I for one welcome our new shotgun-totting overlords.
Haven't even finished my first run yet. :D Partly because I started playing on Ironman immediately. Losing soldiers because of really silly mistakes and then writing sarcastic epitaphs... best feeling ever! :crazyeye:
 
I like the load screen texts. I got a signal about all world cup games of the last centuries; if i stayed in cryosleep for 400 years, i would freak out with 100 fresh editions of the world cup to watch :p But how do we get more of those lore packets, or are they only visible in the load screen?

I'll try the new version (even though street fighter V is being released in about 2 hours \o/ )
 
Alright, played (the first ~150 turns of) a few games now. My overall impression:

A lot of fun! A bit -too- slow for my personal taste, but it captures a lot of what I'm missing in the unmodded game.

Here's my overall list for now:
- I especially like the way it makes resources important and encourages - almost forces - good decisions on where to place cities.
- The same is true for the tech tree - the mod does a great job at making the player choose technologies based on the situation they find themselves in, based on the resources available and based on what direction they want to push their empire.
- The same logic also holds true for many building quests (though not all), especially the ones where you have to decide between getting new resources vs. getting some other bonus. I found myself picking the bonus based on how many resources I had available and feel that especially in situations where you have "some" of one resource but not quite as much as you'd ideally want to have the decision becomes quite a hard one - and that's a good thing in my book. Only exception are the Clinic/Pharamalab quests - 10% Food Kept seems to be the obvious answer here.
- The wonders are, especially in comparison to your new building system, horribly boring. I assume you just haven't gotten around to changing them, but just in case you don't plan to change them: You totally should in my opinion.
- Improvements don't really feel good to me, I find them to be too restrictive. Especially the mine - spending 1 Health to get +2 Production seems to be a really bad trade given that I can just use specialists to get "free" yields. The same is also true for farms - spending 1 Energy for 1 Food could be a good deal, but if I can just use the free Yields from Specialists instead, well... I pretty much ended up mostly ignoring tiles without Resources. Those are two different problems - I find the Mine is good in terms of what it adds to the tile (making a hill a 4-production tile), but the downside is just too strong as long as I have free Specialist Slots (which I always have because while I continue filling the slots the city stagnates); farms however just end up too weak. (/edit: Although I've just realized that the Vivarium adds +1 Food to Farms; that probably changes things quite a lot.)
- Trade Routes "feel" weak to me. As far as I can tell they are not given that they only require some production, but my gut feeling was always trying to ignore them completely. And I don't quite understand why the Trade Depot is located at Civil Support, but Trade Convoys are located at Pioneering. ^^
- I like the idea of the signal, but I think you should do more with it - right now it just means "Build Signal Buildings in my first 2-4 Cities then ignore it." to me.
- I do however like the free Affinity Levels associated with it, it allows to be very flexible with early techs.
- Finally I think the affinity on ring 2 technologies sends the wrong message and doesn't really do much in terms of gameplay. I found myself picking these technologies if I had many of those resources in my area or if I wanted the Orbital Unit associated with it, but never because of the +6 Affinity. Given the amount of people who zealously tried to stay healthy although the penalty of 1-digit negative health numbers is really small I think those Affinity-Values on those technologies would just be a trap for many people. I would suggest either tying the unlocks on these techs closer to one Affinity or removing the small amount of Affinity.
 
I know it can be tricky to articulate but do you have a sense for what made the games feel slow? Progression through the tech web was taking too long? Affinity level felt low? Cities taking too long to build stuff?

Have you got a chance to try out Vivarium-boosted farms? Does it change your initial view or is the building too much of a hassle to be worth it? Do you find the other non-resource Improvements (ei: Academies, Manufacturies, Domes etc) to be worthwhile or marginal?

You mentioned using Specialists, how often would you build the Specialist only buildings (Growlab, Recycler, Thorium Reactor, Lab, HoloSuite)? In all of your cities? Were you running every specialist slot you had or where there often slots that went unused? You called the yield from Specialists "free". Can you elaborate on that? Free as in no tile maintenance right?

For Trade Routes, did you not want to build them because you didn't want to lose the food/production bonus Cities get if they don't have a Depot? Do you have a sense of what percent of your cities had Depots? For example, if you had 4 cities did only your capital have a Depot? Of the Trade Routes you did have, were they Internal, Station or International?

Wonders are something I want to change but will most likely have to wait until after the first public release. I have been hesitant to speak too much about my future plans for the mod because I want to get the current execution solid enough that people will be willing to stick around for the future versions.
 
Finished 2 games now, 1 win with Harmony and 1 with Purity. A few thoughs:

Really like the 2 geothermal per wonder change.

Rushing affinity is too easy and powerful. The AI doesn't use explorers to any great extent, and seems not to go back to get new exploration modules with the ones it actually has. The AI usually antagonizes the aliens straight away, which makes it hard for it to explore. Not pissing off the aliens, going for exploration virtues and just running around getting artifacts, resources and affinity is a given, and really pays off.

Not sure about the first three auto-affinities. Maybe delay them over time a bit and/or only get 2 of them? Perhaps tie them more to virtues, culture and quests (e.g. tie early advancement in purity towards killing off wildlife)?

The signal could be expanded upon. Right now it makes no sense to go for a laser-satellite you'll only get to use for 20 turns or so when you can just build spy-satellites (requiring no petroleum and only a single orbital space) instead. Maybe expand another 50 turns, and get 3/2/1 for each 50 turns? More quests tied to the Signal could be nice. Perhaps connecting to some slowly decaying relay-sat in orbit (would be thematical)?

Since the tech needed to upgrade resources is so central to the mod, at first I spent a lot of time hunting around in the tech-web for the ones I needed. Maybe give these a different colour so that they're easier to find? Would help the noobs alot.

"Minerals" in water can't be improved, but perhaps that's known.

Non-resource improvements are maybe a bit too weak compared to specialists. Perhaps give fractional (0.25 or so) health benefits to farms? Perhaps buff the health penalty (-0.25 or -0.5) to mines as well?

As someone else said, trade routes are a bit meh. Perhaps tie yield more towards what kind of resources the trading cities has? Perhaps benefits in health from trade routes? Mostly my trade routes were internal. The greatest benefit was towards getting new cities started and buffing them with production.

Non-resources improvements were quite marginal in the games I've played. Found the most useful one to be the ones that improved orbital coverage. Yet to build a single node or dome. Perhaps too late game?

Find that I build most specialist buildings in most cities. The Thorium reactor is a must in early game, the Growlab and Recycler too.

Apart from that, great mod! Looking forward to the next version.
 
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