Edit: Help me explain my science yield....

[Planktonic]

I just finished playing the last GOTM, a culture victory game with Kupe.

At the end, I was generating 240 beakers per turn for science. I was generating 589 culture per turn.

Why am I generating this much science?

Spoiler :

In this game I built a total of three campuses, with total campus adjacencies of 7. There were three libraries so an additional +6. Two universities for an additional +8. So total base science from campuses = 21.

My total population was 107 over 12 cities, and I think you get credit for 0.5 bpt/pop, is that right? So that would make for an additional 54 bpt.

The only policy in place affecting science is Raj, which gives me +2 science for each city state suzerainty. I'm suzerain to 13 city states, so +26 there.

I did build a couple of Mahaviharas from the Nalanda suzerainty, so maybe +6 there.

I have nine envoys into Nalanda, which gives me +8 additional science (campus and three libraries x +1, 2 universities x +2). Nalanda was the only science city state I encountered, and I did not build Kilwa.

The only great scientist I recruited was Albert Einstein, and I didn't even bother to activate him, so no further effects there.

If these are the only factors governing science generation, I would be expecting to generate 21 + 54 + 26 + 6 + 8 = 115 beakers per turn. But I am generating more than twice that. What am I missing ?

I noted at several times during the game that when my culture jumped up by a big number, my science would go up too. And I've recently seen an old civtrader6 video on fast science victory with the vanilla game where he was generating a very high science output while concentrating on building up his culture.

So I'm thinking there must be some underlying formula that links science generation to culture generation. Is this in fact the case? Does anyone know how to take this into account prospectively? Or am I totally off base here and something else can explain this seeming discrepancy?

 

[CoconutTank]

You can mouse over your science gen to get a breakdown of beaker sources. That alone might be able to show you the difference between what you've calculated and what the game is displaying.

 

[DanQuayle]

Your post contains multiple spoilers to the current 6otM game. You should use the spoiler tag.

 

[Planktonic]

Your post contains multiple spoilers to the current 6otM game. You should use the spoiler tag.

Sorry, I didn't even think of that. I have removed the image and placed the rest under a spoiler.

You can mouse over your science gen to get a breakdown of beaker sources. That alone might be able to show you the difference between what you've calculated and what the game is displaying.

Thanks, I never noticed that, it was quite helpful. It tells me that a huge amount of science is coming from the capital city (58 bpt) which doesn't even have a campus. But it does help clarify some of the mystery- I forgot about Pingala's promotions. With a pop of 17 and 15% bonus from Librarian, that accounts for ~20. I also didn't recall that Mausoleum can add science output to coastal tiles, 7 of which are being worked, so another ~10. With +2 from the capital itself, that brings it to around 32.

I also didn't take into account the Voidsinger second promotion, which I forgot also affects science (since I chose it to help with culture); this would add 20% of the faith output of the city, which is very high (92).
20% of 92 is approx 18, so 32 + 18 = 50 which is getting to be close to the 58 bpt I am seeing, although there still seems to be at least some discrepancy.

In fact, I'm now left wondering why the faith output in the city is so high. The holy site and buildings account for 13 faith, with Old God Obelisk +4 faith, and Hagia Sophia +4. There are 17 faith from worked tiles that I can see. There is +30 faith from relics, and city-state bonus would add +3. So I get a calculated faith output for the city of 71, which also seems quite a bit off from the reported 92.

I dunno, I guess I'm overlooking some things but I still can't seem to account for everything I'm seeing.

 

[_hero_]

In fact, I'm now left wondering why the faith output in the city is so high. The holy site and buildings account for 13 faith, with Old God Obelisk +4 faith, and Hagia Sophia +4. There are 17 faith from worked tiles that I can see. There is +30 faith from relics, and city-state bonus would add +3. So I get a calculated faith output for the city of 71, which also seems quite a bit off from the reported 92.

I dunno, I guess I'm overlooking some things but I still can't seem to account for everything I'm seeing.

When you can no longer gain a great person in a particular category, all GPP instead generate faith, so for instance once all Great prophets have been claimed, any building or wonder which would generate Great Prophet points instead generates that amount in faith in the city.

 

[UWHabs]

Another source of science is worked tiles, especially late when you have aquariums (science from reefs+coastal resources), zoos (science from jungle). Not a ton, but it can add up. Also trade routes can definitely be a source - again, often small values add up. Getting 1-2 science per trade route from sending to a city with a campus X 10-12 trade routes adds up, even more if you add in Pingala's multipliers. Another multiplier is happiness - 10% here or 10% there can add up too.

For faith, again, if you use the mouseover it should tell you where it comes from. Again, you can easily gain a bunch from trade routes, a ton with Chinguetti, or even very easy to forget that you used the merchant that gives +2 for each trade route to a city-state.

The UI isn't great at breaking it all down, granted. I think there's a common mod out there that lines up the values a little nicer overall. But the default view gives at least some mentions there and can be useful to remember full categories. As mentioned, you're off by 20-ish on faith, but +4(?) can come from those prophet points converting. Maybe if the city is happy, there's another bonus to yields there too. And could easily add another 10-15 faith from trade routes, even without those extra bonuses. Or can be easy to forget a policy card that boosts something, or some other source somehow (like the +1 faith in capital for the 1st envoy in a CS, or the yields you might get from consulates)

 

[Planktonic]

When you can no longer gain a great person in a particular category, all GPP instead generate faith, so for instance once all Great prophets have been claimed, any building or wonder which would generate Great Prophet points instead generates that amount in faith in the city.

Thanks, I did not know this; that does explain (I think) +3 faith more? Gurdwara doesn't give any GPP afaict....

Another source of science is worked tiles, especially late when you have aquariums (science from reefs+coastal resources), zoos (science from jungle). Not a ton, but it can add up. Also trade routes can definitely be a source - again, often small values add up. Getting 1-2 science per trade route from sending to a city with a campus X 10-12 trade routes adds up, even more if you add in Pingala's multipliers. Another multiplier is happiness - 10% here or 10% there can add up too.

Thanks, I looked things over again as best I could. Afaict, empire-wide I'm only getting +3 science from worked tiles beyond what I noted above, and nothing more in my capital city. No additional science from trade, but those trade routes are definitely affecting the faith output. You're right- it adds up- there are 5 trade routes, so +5 faith from trade routes in the capital city. So this would put me at 79, still a bit off from the reported 92.

Wrt happiness, it gets muddier. The city is at -1 amenities. I can't remember where we are with happiness scales after recent patches etc but isn't that going to be a negative modifier of 5 or 10%? In which case the expected faith/science output from the city according to the game (as opposed to my attempt at calculation) should be even *higher* ....

 

[Kibikus]

You can check the tooltip breaking down all the sources of science for every city by mousing over the science focus button on the city panel. Here's a screenshot:

Spoiler science :

Between that and the tooltip for total science generated in the top left, there shouldn't be any science that you can't account for.

 

[Jeppetto]

What types are the City-States? You can get up to 6 Science per City-State per City with Campus with all Buildings plus up to 6 Science per City-State from Capital/Diplomatic Quarter.