Elite Troops die easier

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by Maple
Think about it... To bypass the complicated calculations in battle results, it is surprisingly close to: If a 24attack unit attacks a 2defend unit, then the chances to defend succesfully are about 1/12. (2/24=1/12)

Cavalry have an attack of six. Spearmen defend at two. They have a 33% chance to defend against attacks. Masquerouge, just how many different spearmen did you attack? 20? 40? 80?

Your math isn't totally correct. The chences to defend is 2/(2+6), or rather 2.2/(2.2+6) if the spearman is unfortified in plains. But this is the chance for one HP, the chance of taking out all the cavalry's HPs before dying is less, to be exact: A veteran unfortified spearman in plains will defeat a veteran cavalry 8.9% of the time.

But if you read Masquerouge's post more closely, I guyess you'll find he was sarcastic...

 

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by Ozymandius
my point is:

If you have a choice of attacking units and one of your units is elite... save first ...
attack with elite... who dies. Reload
attack with veteran who lives.
reload try again (Random? seed.)
attack with elite, who dies, reload, attack with other veteran who lives?
I think we are expected to attack with elite in the hope of getting a leader but the result is frequent losses of our finest..
If a 4 striper can beat a three, why can't a five striper?

Can you post one instance of a savegame where it is possible to make the same attack with an elite and a non-elite unit of the same type, and where the elite unit dies while the non-elite survives?

I will even accept it if the elite loses one HP more than the non-elite.

If you can post such a savegame, then I'm going to admit that I'm wrong. If you cannot, then you should realize that it's your own selective memory who's fooling you.

 

[Masquerouge]

Originally posted by TheNiceOne

But if you read Masquerouge's post more closely, I guyess you'll find he was sarcastic...

Not enough, apparently

I really feel bad about all the people who started extrapolated on my datas, I gave them almost at random... What is true is that I attacked France, KICKED THEIR BUTT BIG TIME (I said I killed close to 150of their units), lost only 10 cavalry or so in the process, and I distinctly remember loosing at least once against a spearman.
Now, of course, among the 150 now dead units, were, what, 75 spearmen ?

 

[Paalikles]

IMHO
...it is strange that my jet fighters fail to bombard so often
...I am frustrated that my cannons do not work
...I dislike the fact that 24 barbarian horsemen appeared and crushed my defense (1 invincible spearmen,1veteran spearman 1 knight) and carried away my treasury
...I am surprised that my elite modern armour just lost to a conscript rifleman

BUT - nevertheless
...I keep building more and more units
...I churn out improvements
...I play on for hours

Civ3 is great isn't it?

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Originally posted by Paalikles

...I am surprised that my elite modern armour just lost to a conscript rifleman

That's the problem with those darn conscripts. In your instance that was probably Sargent York, who started as a conscript but really was an elite. He just shot through a hole in the turret and ricocheted the shot to hit all the tankmen with a single shot.

 

[Ozymandius]

Yes I will save the game the next time it occurs.
I just wanted to know if someone had the same experience.

Till then no more sarcastic rejoinders

Next question

Does the palace building self-opening screen get disabled automatically? Mine does not open at times and I use F9 to get there.

Tho I'm doing quite well this game my palace is not progressing.
Is there any relationship between the progress on the palace additions and the price of moving it to a new city. Since I use the castle to prebuild wonders the turns to completion becommes important

 

[Paalikles]

Originally posted by Ozymandius
Yes I will save the game the next time it occurs.
I just wanted to know if someone had the same experience.

Till then no more sarcastic rejoinders

Next question

Does the castle building self opening screen get disabled automatically?

Tho I'm doing quite well this game my castle is not progressing.
Is there any relationship between the progress on the castle and the price of moving it to a new city. Since I use the castle to prebuild wonders the turns to completion becommes important

Castle? Oh..you mean palace
Cost / progress of palace will be decided by how fast a city is able to build. (buildtime in general - shields produced per turn)
dunno if this is true though

 

[TheDS]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by TheNiceOne

But if you read Masquerouge's post more closely, I guyess you'll find he was sarcastic...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Not enough, apparently

Yeah, I know how you feel. Subtlety is lost on a crowd that's sick to death of whiners.

 

[Ozymandius]

Whining, who's whining. Some guys are anal-retentive who want to add their excess gas; but who wants to be subtle?

I posted an experience I had while attacking with some elite as opposed to veteran troops.

I was led to believe that non-random events were of interest to some players. I got some intersting info concerning random seeds. Others just want to post comments without any useful info. Don't like my thread, ignore it and start your own.

 

[Qitai]

It is possible for a fast elite to die while a fast veteran survive. This is due to how the retreating works. FYI, a unit retreats if it gets a "unlucky" roll.

 

[philippe]

heyont ever say a bad word over elite!
i killed8 spearman with 3 elite archers.
and i had a warrior who killed swordsmen

 

[Ozymandius]

Sorry about Belgium vs Brazil. They were robbed by the ref. So much for elite footballers.

 

[jimmymango]

I have *totally* noticed this, and it is extremely frustrating. Veterans almost always fight better than Elites. At least at full strength.

I will almost always attack with my Veterans first, because the Elites just seem to get killed. The only reason I can think of to explain this, is that they didn't want Leaders to be created very easily.

But aside from the extra hitpoint, Elites seem to suck.

 

[TheNiceOne]

Ozymandius and jimmymango (And anybody else with the same opinion):

I'll say it clearly: I believe you're plain wrong. There are no non-random game mechanics that make veteran units fight better than elite.

If you still believe so, then show it to me. This would be so easy to prove that you should be able to do so within an hour's play:

I'll say it again: Save before combat, attack with elite unit, then reload and attack with a non-elite unit. If they fare differently then post the save game and be free to gloat.

But since no such save game has ever been posted, I firmly belive that this has never happened.

Ozymandius, I do think any such non-random event would be very interesting to know about - but unless you show it to me, I'll continue to belive that this is only a part of your imagination.

 

[sharky]

if you keep on talking about this all save and reload , you can cause millions of deaths.
if hitler would find out about it, he would just reload 1942, wont attack russia, and control the world.
so be quiet, you found this amazing realistic system of saving and reloading, but there is no need to talk about it anymore.
be quiet.

 

[Ozymandius]

Hi Niceone.

I am presently playing without any recurrence of my observation. Therefore it is not a continuing phenomenon. When it happens again I will save it and show you. My imagination is quite vivid though. Because I cannot waste my aspiring elite leaders, I save/reload to allow veterans and regulars the honour of becoming cannon fodder.

To Sharky:
If you don't like what is posted, don't read the thread and spend your time constructing your own, more important minutae. This forum is here to allow us to express experiences that might be patterns not known to others, in the hope of understanding the game. If Hitler had this game, he would not have needed a real army to try and rule the world. He would have wasted his life playing Civ3.

 

[Ozymandius]

Proof is at hand:

I have saved a game in which I can attack a Persian city with
1) elite 2) veteran 3) regular.

If I attack with the elite he dies, the veteran is then weakened and the regular can take the city. Another veteran can than attack a defender in the mountains but the vet dies.

If I attack with either the regular or veteran first, they take hit points but the elite takes the city and the other veteran kills the guy in the mountains.

I'm not saying it happens every time but in any battle an elite should do better than a rookie.

 

[TheNiceOne]

I'm not sure I understand exactly what's happening from your description. Can you please give a more detailed description about what's happening and attach the save so that I can download it and test?

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Ozymandius
I have saved a game in which I can attack a Persian city with
1) elite 2) veteran 3) regular.

If I attack with the elite he dies, the veteran is then weakened and the regular can take the city. Another veteran can than attack a defender in the mountains but the vet dies.

If I attack with either the regular or veteran first, they take hit points but the elite takes the city and the other veteran kills the guy in the mountains.

We were expecting you to post your saved game here. Do you see that little "attach file" field at the bottom when you post?

 

[Ozymandius]

I'll try