Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
Ok decent compromise, as we are not to give away too much info, and we may like to trade them something.
Embassy to CDZ Land
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Well, we could work on a revised, down-to-earth version. The thing is I think cav_scout's message reveals a bit too much info, but a similar style with the info we do want revealed I could do.
Also, that was in a PM from BCLG, they presumably don't have a diplomat with an official message ready either, so I'm not entirely sure what they will be like all game. Nothing new on our gmail account though - again anyone free to check at any time I'd say, at least for me even though I'll be the ambassador here don't have to wait for me if they send a message and I'm not online.
We could certainly shelve that message, though realize much of it will change anyway depending on the team we meet, obviously not talking just about the Vikings. If we meet the third team soon though everything about Buddhism, SH etc... is still relevant.
Edit: unless someone else beats me to it in a xpost, A more-direct message to CDZ:
Also, that was in a PM from BCLG, they presumably don't have a diplomat with an official message ready either, so I'm not entirely sure what they will be like all game. Nothing new on our gmail account though - again anyone free to check at any time I'd say, at least for me even though I'll be the ambassador here don't have to wait for me if they send a message and I'm not online.
We could certainly shelve that message, though realize much of it will change anyway depending on the team we meet, obviously not talking just about the Vikings. If we meet the third team soon though everything about Buddhism, SH etc... is still relevant.
Edit: unless someone else beats me to it in a xpost, A more-direct message to CDZ:
Greetings, people of CDZ. We are glad to meet you and hope we can get good relations going that will lead to profitable cooperation and a lasting friendship.
You ask how long we have been searching - the answer is our whole lives baby, the sailors have been rather lonely,. They'd set out while our capital spent many long years building a grand wonder at home. And for that matter, the ship spent some recent time in a frenzy of excitement and anticipation because the navigators could barely see your borders across the sea, but not enough to make contact. We figure it's the fair city Spamalot just south of where our boats met and about to expand it's culture sometime soon?
But seriously, we think sharing info would be a good way to get the ball going between our two teams. First 3 techs would also be a good info exchange.
A few things we will volunteer in good faith to start off with:
*As you may know, due to Stonehenge centering we can tell you that our workboat and yours are kicking it in the south on the map right now
*We haven't met anyone else, our exploring boat intends to sail onwards and perhaps together we can contact the next civilization on the other side of you.
*Our starting location has spare wheat, spices and silver that we hope to soon trade with you.
Feel free to contact our embassy anytime, we are sure there is much more to discuss.
Team Quatronia
Earthling, Ambassador
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
I think we do not need to be explicit about our starting position being an island, we should leave that particular info out. We should also state that we see their borders in the south, when we come down to them.
Actually just put that in, to ask them to confirm if it was their borders we just spotted/right around where. I'm pretty sure they will figure everyone started on an island, because it is only fair from the mapmakers/kinda obvious, but sure.
When we have a third/fourth voice supporting this revision of the message it's ready to be sent I think, thanks everyone. CDZ has their team email in the main forum thread/think it was posted here recently too, and we'll send this via quatronia10.
When we have a third/fourth voice supporting this revision of the message it's ready to be sent I think, thanks everyone. CDZ has their team email in the main forum thread/think it was posted here recently too, and we'll send this via quatronia10.
RegentMan
Deity
I like your message above in post 22.
Message sent. First substantial contact went off well I'd say, we'll see what CDZ is up to, and they really could be up to anything, from expanding themselves (worries here) to something military, to going for Colossus or some wonder or an even weirder strategy.
Also, are we going to want to sticky embassy threads someday, or do we feel they'll be active enough/kept up with anyway? Another thought is that if Provo doesn't want to constantly update the OP with our "status" on treaties and stuff I or someone else could start off a final/permanent thread about CDZ, though that's a lot of threadmaking.
Also, are we going to want to sticky embassy threads someday, or do we feel they'll be active enough/kept up with anyway? Another thought is that if Provo doesn't want to constantly update the OP with our "status" on treaties and stuff I or someone else could start off a final/permanent thread about CDZ, though that's a lot of threadmaking.
cav scout
The Continuum
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Looks like we have another good ole team Q 50/50 split! 
We need to get more opinions before we send anything I think. Anyone else care to weigh in? The sooner we decide the better.
Edit: ugh...xpost... actually a "missed a whole page of discussion" kinda xpost
I think the message sent is awesome 
We need to get more opinions before we send anything I think. Anyone else care to weigh in? The sooner we decide the better.Edit: ugh...xpost... actually a "missed a whole page of discussion" kinda xpost
I think the message sent is awesome Sorry, I saw that as me, Regent, and Provo happy on the newest - the one in post 22- message, which dispenses with most "diplomatic roleplaying" and tells them the info we're ok with them knowing. It's quite similar to yours as well for much of it.
cav scout
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Nah its all good, my post #27 was just behind the times... 
One little point though- you said that you thought my draft gave too much away. But the only thing that you cut was the part about how they can find us if they go south (which is the direction they are headed anyways and the direction they know we are coming from).
And my draft didn't mention anything about meeting another team yet. I consider this MUCH more important info than the obvious direction of our capital.
I also didn't mention that we saw their culture. Instead I asked them to guide us to where we can make border contact, which was kind of a test.
One little point though- you said that you thought my draft gave too much away. But the only thing that you cut was the part about how they can find us if they go south (which is the direction they are headed anyways and the direction they know we are coming from).
And my draft didn't mention anything about meeting another team yet. I consider this MUCH more important info than the obvious direction of our capital.
I also didn't mention that we saw their culture. Instead I asked them to guide us to where we can make border contact, which was kind of a test.
Hmm, I must've read it as Provo did too and thought you mentioned we had a second boat. Know right at the end there we cut out the part about ourselves being on an island. The thing is we actually are about to make contact with another team and if anything this version sounds like it's just them.
Though on that matter I would love it if we could encourage them to send their workboat further east/north, rather than our way. We'll have to really see how to ask them if they have another workboat or any tidings from further east/north themselves. Not sure if they have two workboats, one already making contact with other teams, ends up being a good or bad thing (in another 15-20 turns we will probably find the next team after Vikings anyway)
Though on that matter I would love it if we could encourage them to send their workboat further east/north, rather than our way. We'll have to really see how to ask them if they have another workboat or any tidings from further east/north themselves. Not sure if they have two workboats, one already making contact with other teams, ends up being a good or bad thing (in another 15-20 turns we will probably find the next team after Vikings anyway)
I also prefer cav scout's version and agree with RegentMan's analysis.
When I read earthling's message it really stands out to me that we are not sure if it is their border we see with a really hamfisted attempt to hide the fact we're asking, which rubs me the wrong way.
Even though the overall message is more direct, I feel that cav scout's version is more subtle about confirming if they are next to us. Cav scout's ventures very little information that is of any value about our civ, but it is more clear about its intent and we would be able to figure more about their attitude/temper from the response to it. We'll find out of those borders we see belong to them within a few turns anyway, how they answer the question is far more interesting to me than the answer itself. A more flowery message invites a more cryptic response.
I agree that we shouldn't tell them about our second workboat. Since we built SH they may be inclined to assume that we only have one anyway, which I wouldn't feel any need to correct.
It's obvious that a fair amount of work went into RPing that first message and I agree with regentman that there are definitely some other civs out there who would really appreciate it with just a little tweaking of the details.
When I read earthling's message it really stands out to me that we are not sure if it is their border we see with a really hamfisted attempt to hide the fact we're asking, which rubs me the wrong way.
Even though the overall message is more direct, I feel that cav scout's version is more subtle about confirming if they are next to us. Cav scout's ventures very little information that is of any value about our civ, but it is more clear about its intent and we would be able to figure more about their attitude/temper from the response to it. We'll find out of those borders we see belong to them within a few turns anyway, how they answer the question is far more interesting to me than the answer itself. A more flowery message invites a more cryptic response.
I agree that we shouldn't tell them about our second workboat. Since we built SH they may be inclined to assume that we only have one anyway, which I wouldn't feel any need to correct.
It's obvious that a fair amount of work went into RPing that first message and I agree with regentman that there are definitely some other civs out there who would really appreciate it with just a little tweaking of the details.
Yeah, again, we did go with sending a mostly non-RP message, and really it's no offense, just a different style. Any of the flowery message is shelved/scrapped though we'll see the style of future teams down the line.
If CDZ doesn't want to go with much RP-ish stuff that's really fine - the preference of their whole team/being able to work with them is what matters, and in fact it's never hard just to discuss things in civ-game terms.
Lastly - anyone always feel free to check our team email, though we haven't heard back yet, a day or two is probably to be expected anyway.
If CDZ doesn't want to go with much RP-ish stuff that's really fine - the preference of their whole team/being able to work with them is what matters, and in fact it's never hard just to discuss things in civ-game terms.
Lastly - anyone always feel free to check our team email, though we haven't heard back yet, a day or two is probably to be expected anyway.
I received a PM from Robi D - basically they just confirmed they received our message. It seems we are happy to communicate through our email "embassies" and I appreciate all your support and input, we'll move forward on diplomacy together as a team.
Also what I responded
Also what I responded
Received from CDZ, Robi sent me a kind and short PM too, but they did as they said and got back to us today.
Right, so some thoughts - with recent other happenings, we are certain we've mapped out where the Viking capital is. They say they have crab, sugar, and gold. This would make sense in explaining why some teams appeared to go with fishing and building workboats first, as we saw in Demographics as the start of the game - they might also have a higher GNP than average, for the gold on the ocean tiles and actual gold itself.
Nothing major revealed, and I suspect their workboat heads our way as we can only really expect, it's hardly like there's any other real "duties" the workboat has.
That said, we can certainly keep them in the dark about Mavericks - they could easily expect we don't find anything till the Rio Grande gets further around to the next civ. What I would like to know about CDZ is what they are thinking of teching and building, if we are to be able to hope we get some trade for Alphabet off or something. But that's a given, they'll want to know the same about us.
Probably work on a draft for another response by tomorrow, and we'll need all the time we can get into diplomacy at this point. Meanwhile we'll see what is also going on with the Mavericks.
Edit - for CDZ, I think our priorities are the following, just to consider for the next message.
1. Encourage them not to expand straight towards us; this can be subtle by so long as they don't do that, it helps
2. Keep them in the dark about other diplomacy for a while. Because we honestly do know they and Mavericks on the other side of us can't meet for a while. We'll let them think our other workboat heading further out is the only explorer we have, maybe imply we'd like to work with that third team, depending on our strategy.
3. Just for form, establish further diplomatic conventions. They sent us a message that while humourous (barbarian lions) wasn't entirely matter-of-fact. Do we try being a little more RP-ish for a while? Obviously if our strategy is going to end up more towards the begrudging/hostile side of things than open and honest allies, RP-ish for now could slow things down and keep them from going after us yet.
Right, so some thoughts - with recent other happenings, we are certain we've mapped out where the Viking capital is. They say they have crab, sugar, and gold. This would make sense in explaining why some teams appeared to go with fishing and building workboats first, as we saw in Demographics as the start of the game - they might also have a higher GNP than average, for the gold on the ocean tiles and actual gold itself.
Nothing major revealed, and I suspect their workboat heads our way as we can only really expect, it's hardly like there's any other real "duties" the workboat has.
That said, we can certainly keep them in the dark about Mavericks - they could easily expect we don't find anything till the Rio Grande gets further around to the next civ. What I would like to know about CDZ is what they are thinking of teching and building, if we are to be able to hope we get some trade for Alphabet off or something. But that's a given, they'll want to know the same about us.
Probably work on a draft for another response by tomorrow, and we'll need all the time we can get into diplomacy at this point. Meanwhile we'll see what is also going on with the Mavericks.
Edit - for CDZ, I think our priorities are the following, just to consider for the next message.
1. Encourage them not to expand straight towards us; this can be subtle by so long as they don't do that, it helps
2. Keep them in the dark about other diplomacy for a while. Because we honestly do know they and Mavericks on the other side of us can't meet for a while. We'll let them think our other workboat heading further out is the only explorer we have, maybe imply we'd like to work with that third team, depending on our strategy.
3. Just for form, establish further diplomatic conventions. They sent us a message that while humourous (barbarian lions) wasn't entirely matter-of-fact. Do we try being a little more RP-ish for a while? Obviously if our strategy is going to end up more towards the begrudging/hostile side of things than open and honest allies, RP-ish for now could slow things down and keep them from going after us yet.
cav scout
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About your points:
1. Lets not start pissing on trees to mark our territory just yet, all this will do is get us on their death list. There will be a time for that later.
2. Yes keep them in the dark.
3. No more RP. They responded the way they did based on the tone of our note. Stalling with RP means we will loose the friends race with their other neighbor.
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A few points of my own:
1. I suspect they are telling the truth about meeting us first. This is good, we need to capitalize on the advantage of first contact to get in tight with them.
2. They read our offer to follow our boat to the east as an attempt to keep them away from us and whoever is on the other side of us. Not good. We should reply back with directions to us. We can also say that we will give them a heads up for any interesting discoveries we make on our voyage east (we will define "interesting discoveries" anyways we want of course ).
3. They want to open trade routes and trade resources. Very good. We should tell them we want open borders and to trade crabs/wheat and silver/gold as soon as we can. The need for Writing could be a sedgeway into talking about tech trades.
4. We want to ask them about what kind of tech trades they might want to make. We should volunteer our first 3 techs in good faith (not a huge secret really) and see if they respond in kind.
5. We should offer a NAP.
1. Lets not start pissing on trees to mark our territory just yet, all this will do is get us on their death list. There will be a time for that later.
2. Yes keep them in the dark.
3. No more RP. They responded the way they did based on the tone of our note. Stalling with RP means we will loose the friends race with their other neighbor.
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A few points of my own:
1. I suspect they are telling the truth about meeting us first. This is good, we need to capitalize on the advantage of first contact to get in tight with them.
2. They read our offer to follow our boat to the east as an attempt to keep them away from us and whoever is on the other side of us. Not good. We should reply back with directions to us. We can also say that we will give them a heads up for any interesting discoveries we make on our voyage east (we will define "interesting discoveries" anyways we want of course
).3. They want to open trade routes and trade resources. Very good. We should tell them we want open borders and to trade crabs/wheat and silver/gold as soon as we can. The need for Writing could be a sedgeway into talking about tech trades.
4. We want to ask them about what kind of tech trades they might want to make. We should volunteer our first 3 techs in good faith (not a huge secret really) and see if they respond in kind.
5. We should offer a NAP.
I was actually going to quote all of your points for in-depth, but since I agree with almost all actually there's no need and it would be confusing, here goes more simply:
For #1, I agree, because it sounds to me like they got their workboat lost/wasted time on that inlet. Still, they could feasibly be contacted by the team on the other side of them sometime. We will know exactly when/how long we have before they reach the Mavericks though.
I certainly could be fine with dispensing with more RP - and that naturally means we can't be obstructionist about things like territory. Rather than roundabout mentioning such things we'd just not mention them at all, not stir the hornet's nest.
As for how to deal with them - well, resource trades (good for us but better for them, remember, from the sound of things), a NAP, and tech goes hand in hand.
I do think they might be concerned about our mutual workboats' situations. So recommending they would find us in the general westerly direction, and we'd keep them informed of "interesting discoveries" sounds good enough.
Volunteering our basic tech sounds good. Though I'd almost rather volunteer Sailing, because Sailing will be necessary to resource trade, and we are just about to get it. They might have it too though, but just to be on the same page. It's obvious what we have religion-wise, and that everyone naturally gets Bronze Working.
But no matter how we deal with them in the future if we let them know we're on the Writing path that's a good start. If we really want the Vikings as allies, we seek them to research useful stuff. If we don't, well, we'd still want them to think we would go Writing/Alpha and trade, just perhaps suggest less useful things for them. Best of course if they actually want to go down an expensive sideroute themselves, for whatever reason (Iron or Colossus etc...)
We should probably work on another message for tomorrow but I may be a bit busy. Definitely want another round of messages before the end of the *next* turn.
For #1, I agree, because it sounds to me like they got their workboat lost/wasted time on that inlet. Still, they could feasibly be contacted by the team on the other side of them sometime. We will know exactly when/how long we have before they reach the Mavericks though.
I certainly could be fine with dispensing with more RP - and that naturally means we can't be obstructionist about things like territory. Rather than roundabout mentioning such things we'd just not mention them at all, not stir the hornet's nest.
As for how to deal with them - well, resource trades (good for us but better for them, remember, from the sound of things), a NAP, and tech goes hand in hand.
I do think they might be concerned about our mutual workboats' situations. So recommending they would find us in the general westerly direction, and we'd keep them informed of "interesting discoveries" sounds good enough.
Volunteering our basic tech sounds good. Though I'd almost rather volunteer Sailing, because Sailing will be necessary to resource trade, and we are just about to get it. They might have it too though, but just to be on the same page. It's obvious what we have religion-wise, and that everyone naturally gets Bronze Working.
But no matter how we deal with them in the future if we let them know we're on the Writing path that's a good start. If we really want the Vikings as allies, we seek them to research useful stuff. If we don't, well, we'd still want them to think we would go Writing/Alpha and trade, just perhaps suggest less useful things for them. Best of course if they actually want to go down an expensive sideroute themselves, for whatever reason (Iron or Colossus etc...)
We should probably work on another message for tomorrow but I may be a bit busy. Definitely want another round of messages before the end of the *next* turn.
RegentMan
Deity
With each island surrounded by ocean tiles, will that delay resource trading until Astronomy? Or does border-encompassed ocean count as coast, in trade route terms?
And what else is new? I agree with cav's points.
And what else is new? I agree with cav's points.
I wondered that myself regentman. In single player I've often been frustrated trying to figure out what exactly allows or blocks a trade route. I'm sure there are hard and fast rules, but the nuances of them are beyond me.
I think it will be very hard to "encourage" them not to settle in our direction without making some kind of power play or locking down a pretty serious partnership (not that I am opposed to that).
I like the "interesting discoveries" line. It has the smell of a lie that just might be true without making excuses for trying to keep them away from us. Genius.
I think our goal for any relations we have with the vikings for the next 100 turns should be to encourage them not to attack us. Whatever the appropriate level of friendship is to accomplish that has my support.
I tried to hold myself back, but I felt compelled to point out that it is spelled segue rather than sedgeway =).
I think it will be very hard to "encourage" them not to settle in our direction without making some kind of power play or locking down a pretty serious partnership (not that I am opposed to that).
I like the "interesting discoveries" line. It has the smell of a lie that just might be true without making excuses for trying to keep them away from us. Genius.
I think our goal for any relations we have with the vikings for the next 100 turns should be to encourage them not to attack us. Whatever the appropriate level of friendship is to accomplish that has my support.
I tried to hold myself back, but I felt compelled to point out that it is spelled segue rather than sedgeway =).
cav scout
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