English Longbowmen? Really?

[ZhugeTien]

The greatest part of the mystique surrounding them deals with the English victory at Agincourt. It turns out, on scientific examination, that the longbowmen had less to do with that victory than the mud that the heavily-armored French knights had to wade through to get to them. Sure, their horses might have been slain by the arrows, but their expensive steel armor would have laughed at the cheap iron-tipped arrows used by the English. At best, the longbows dismounted them and caused them to fall and suffocate in the mud of the battlefield (it had been rainy).

So, England needs a new UU, I think. One that doesn't have the range of freaking ARTILLERY!! I know there's already a redcoat unit out there, and I like that idea a lot.

Hm. How about a new UB? Textile Mill: replaces Windmill. Same effects, but +5 gold a la Chinese papermaker, and doesn't suffer the flat-terrain-only limitation.

Sorry, just thinking out loud.

 

[pi-r8]

Longbowmen lack the indirect fire promo that artillery has, so in most situations they can't actually use their full range. They also have the same problem that all crossbowmen have- they don't promote and cannon come along soon which are much better. So I think their balance is actually OK. At least, as OK as any balance can be with the ridiculous ranged attacks in this game.

Maybe it's not historical but who cares. At least it's true to the myth of history.

 

[Mac2411]

I agree the range is ridiculous, but the longbow was actually capable of penetrating plate mail armor that most knights of the day wore. There are some studies that show it could not penetrate the most expensive steel plate mail, but that type was worn by a very small minority at the time of the 100 Years War due to its scarcity and great expense.

 

[DaveGold]

Are you really making a case a that longbows were never an iconic English weapon of the medieval era and also making a case that the unit is imbalanced in game? I suspect one is leading you to the other.

If you're a making a case that longbowmen shooting further than cannons is ridiculous, but archers shooting than riflemen is not ridiculous, please explain further.

 

[ZhugeTien]

Hm. I'm looking at modding so that the English have their longbows replace the other civs' crossbows art-wise, but I'm having trouble finding the xml that gives them that range upgrade. I want them to have the same art and still be called longbows, but be mechanically identical to crossbows for other civs.

 

[stormerne]

Longbows in general and the English longbow in particular were terribly inefficient bows, largely because they were self-bows. They required huge strength and they stacked too easily. I hesitate to think what those bowmen could have done if they'd had proper recurve technology such as the Mongols had.

I'm not sure how you could create an analogue of such inefficiency. Perhaps the best way is to understand that once a longbowman, always a longbowman; the immense strength required changed the shape of the upper body. So restricting upgrades would be one approach.

 

[ZhugeTien]

Wow, I wasn't trying to start a flame war or anything. I agree that English Longbows were awesome, and I think all ranged units should be limited to two-hex range (even if unrealistic in actual scale), if only because the 1 upt (which I adore) makes more sense mechanically that way.

All I meant to say was that I thought the English should have a UB to reflect their infrastructure rather than a UU that was historically very similar to the crossbowman they replace.

 

[ZhugeTien]

So if anyone finds the code that determines the English Longbows getting that free range upgrade before I do, I'd thank you to let me know and stuff. I'm pretty new at modding, and I thought a project that changes a couple simple things might be best for a first go at it.

 

[ZhugeTien]

I realize my first post was inflammatory, but I really was just thinking out loud. In practice, I prefer each civ to have a UU and a UB, and not two UU's. Just a mechanics preference on my part. Sure, longbows were great. I just think they should be a unique art and text replacement for crossbows, rather than a UU.

I think the English, the Germans, and all the other civs who are cursed with two UU's should have a UB to replace one of them. I prefer to play the Chinese, myself, cause papermakers are frickin' awesome! I think every civ should have a UB that's as exciting to play, rather than UU's which sometimes get totally outdated (Greeks come to mind).

Anyhow, that's where my modding philosophy is. Just want to provide an option for others who may feel similarly.

 

[Putmalk]

James Bond should be the unique unit.

 

[stormerne]

James Bond should be the unique unit.

Classic. Yes!

 

[Shmike]

James Bond should be the unique unit.

I thought he was a great spy? Oh wait...

 

[ZhugeTien]

Lawlz. Totally a Great Spy, though I'm glad to be rid of that nonsense since playing almost exclusively Rhye's toward the end of my Civ 4 time.

Of course, I got so fed up with India, Japan, and Khmer that I'd trade for Ivory from India and build about 15 war elephants and some melee units to obliterate Genghis when he dared show up with his impotent war face.

 

[KahunaGod]

Longbows in general and the English longbow in particular were terribly inefficient bows, largely because they were self-bows. They required huge strength and they stacked too easily. I hesitate to think what those bowmen could have done if they'd had proper recurve technology such as the Mongols had.

I'm not sure how you could create an analogue of such inefficiency. Perhaps the best way is to understand that once a longbowman, always a longbowman; the immense strength required changed the shape of the upper body. So restricting upgrades would be one approach.

Gotta disagree with you on this. The mongols recurve was born from the compromise of finding a range weapon capable of accurate fire from horseback. An english longbow has both greater power and range then the mongol recurve. The english longbow was designed to penetrate metal armor including plate, while the mongol recurve was used primarily against leather (maybe some bronze on the rare "noble" at the time). The mongols savaged eastern europe at the time because eastern europe couldnt respond to the mongols speed and weapons. If the mogols jumped a few hundred years into the future and attacked a longbow unit, their initial casualties would have been horrific. If they had the numbers to close, they probably would have finished off the longbowman, but it would have been a bloodbath on both sides. The reason no one was using the recurve in such manners at that time (well, some light horse and scouts did) was the fact that the other side by this time had heavy horse in plate armor that would meet greet any light horse charge, coupled with longbow volleys. Also, recurves wear out/fatigue much quicker and lose their tension/strength over time much quicker than a good longbow.

On a side note, anyone have any info or knowledge on the Japanese longbows? Those things were freaking huge and I think they used them from horseback as well (or at least i think the samurai did, someone could correct me).

 

[lschnarch]

The English Longbow (the UU) is the most single blatant misconception in terms of units to be found in the game (well, maybe even passed by the GDR).
Having a medevial man-powered unit shooting as far as industrial-age artillery is just a joke, and not a good one.

 

[Gangor]

The funniest thing is that a longbow has a shorter range than a crossbow. The advantage was it's rate of fire (several times faster) and superior accuracy. It also had the disadvantage of requiring it's user to train constantly from a young age in order to master it.

 

[Zydor]

...... On a side note, anyone have any info or knowledge on the Japanese longbows? Those things were freaking huge and I think they used them from horseback as well (or at least i think the samurai did, someone could correct me).

The Japanese "longbow" was the Yumi. The most famous exponent of their use was the Samurai, who were particularly lethal with it when used on horseback, although like the English Longbow it was used dismounted in massed ranks. There is a short article on Wikipedia about the general side of things regarding the Yumi, and references to variants and other aspects that can be used for further targeted searching about it all.

The Japanese Yumi

Regards
Zy

 

[gornard]

people are obsessed with disparaging the longbow whenever it comes up in games, but few of the other unique units would hold up any better under intense scrutiny. Why would red coats be such a better idea? They were just British army regulars, and their quality in battle fluctuated wildly from conflict to conflict.

 

[markantony]

The Spitfire should be a British UU.

 

[AfterShafter]

The English Longbow (the UU) is the most single blatant misconception in terms of units to be found in the game (well, maybe even passed by the GDR).
Having a medevial man-powered unit shooting as far as industrial-age artillery is just a joke, and not a good one.

Just curious... You realize that if realism is the yardstick we're measuring things by and saying "That is RIDICULOUS!" as a result of, then those industrial age artillery are probably shooting about 600 kilometers when they fire, right?...