[GS] Espionage advice wanted

[Sequence07]

I'm looking for some advice regarding the spy mechanics. I'm a long time civ player (started with civ3), I tried civ6 at release and rage quit because of the spy mechanics. I've recently come back after picking up all the dlc. I've learned a lot more about how spies work (I wasn't using counter spies originally). But I'm still struggling to not find the espionage mechanics frustrating.

I'm currently playing a multiplayer game with a friend, I'm playing as Mansu Musa. I focused heavily on the trade routes and managed to get the Great Zimbabwe in my capital, so my capital has become a financial powerhouse, producing over 500 gpt. Nearly all my empires gold production is in my capital.

I've got a level 3 spy with the counter spy promotion set to counter spy in the capitals commercial hub. I've got a spy with polygraph in the industrial district adjacent to the commercial hub. But even with the counter spies in place I'm losing about two thirds of my economy still (I only have 5 cities). Which has utterly crippled my game plan. I don't have enough gold to buy my buildings and units, so I'm having to build them with Mansas 30% penalty. Which is causing me to fall behind. I've gone from 3rd on the score board to 4th since hitting the renaissance and unlocking spies.

I don't know what else I'm supposed to do. My human ally hasn't had a single ai spy in his territory. All the AIs seem to be focussing everything on my commercial hub. Even when I kill an enemy spy, there'll be another one in there stealing the income. Not had the fortune to capture any spies yet so I can keep them locked up. I'm not leading on any of the victory conditions and my relations with the AIs are mostly neutral. My human ally is closing in on both science and cultural victories. One AI is half way to a religious victory and another AI is working on a diplomatic victory. I'm not leading in any of them (I'm not the best player and I didn't expand quickly enough). I don't get why I'm the primary spy target.

I'm starting to lose interest in the game because of how frustrating it is to have your game plans ruined by something you can't counter. But the forums aren't filled with complaints, so I must be missing something/doing something wrong.

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Bangau]

managed to get the Great Zimbabwe

The 'bonus' with Great Zimbabwe is that you basically attract all the AI's spies in that city. They value cities with high income the most. Silly, but that's how it goes... You already have counterspies in the city, if you get at least two, maybe even three in the CH and the districts next to it you should be able to kill and capture most spies after a while. You need to pick promotions on your spies that give them bonuses (you already have the +2 for counterspying you mention) and if you have unlocked them you could also use the green policy cards that boost your spies and decrease the effectiveness of your opponent's spies.

An unfortunate problem with a 'high target' city and the way spies work, is that even a level 3 spy gets 'promoted' and is ineffective for one turn after they capture or kill an opponent's spy. In that turn another spy can 'swoop' in and grab the money.

 

[Sequence07]

Ahh, so is it more of an issue with the wonder rather than my overall strategy? I have 7 bonus resources and 5 flat desert tiles in the city, so my trade routes are producing about 50 gold each. I guess that's a pretty big lure.

I've got a 3rd spy fishing for promotions at the moment that I'm planning on putting in the city district (also next to the commercial hub). I've not unlocked the green cards that buff spies yet (apart from build speed and op duration).

I guess it feels worse because I'm playing as Mansu Musa and produce a lot of gold but have a production penalty.

I'll push my civics tree towards to ither green cards and see if a 3rd spy helps.

 

[Tech Osen]

Great Zimbabwe needs to be used with caution. You have put all your eggs in one basket and when that basket gets stolen you're in deep doodoo. I have ragequit one game where that happened to me, that wonder is very low on my list now.

 

[Basajaun]

Yes, If you put a really delicious cake in the middle of the empire, something is bound to happen.
James Bond might be good, but he cant be everywhere at once.
Stack more spies, eventually the Ai will run out. Unless they want to keep building spies constantly, you will reduce your changes of sabotage considerably.
Also have one of your spies on offensive, send it to whoever is sabotaging you. If you dont know who it is, just run around sabotaging stuff to force the Ai to use spies defensively as well.

 

[Zdarg]

Ahh, so is it more of an issue with the wonder rather than my overall strategy?

I'd dare to say it's wrong strategy.

 

[Tech Osen]

Not sure of the situation but the only way to fix this is probably to reset all your trade routes by declaring war. If you're trade routes go to allies, you're stuck till the alliance runs out.

 

[CPWimmer]

I'd say that the RNG will catch up and favor you in the long run. It sounds like you have at least 2 good spies covering the CH, so even when one takes off a turn to get promoted, you still have coverage. You've built a big enough honey trap that at least you know where they will be targeting, and it sounds like the trap is set. I think your strategy is sound at this point. I would recommend the Cryptography policy card found at Cold War for the extra espionage defense, but that's pretty deep into the civics tree.

Also, since you are playing with a human ally, remember that all of your spy./counterspy work that you have to focus on allows him to push forward to his own victory faster. And his victory is your victory.

Also, unless there's a really weird scenario going on, you don't need to really worry about "One AI is half way to a religious victory". In 9.5 out of 10 games that's not a viable strategy.

To be fair, for me, part of the fun of the game is having to adjust your plan because the game comes along and wrecks it. Also, Mali is a challenging Civ to play as a less experienced Civ 6'er but you'll get there!

 

[Sequence07]

Thanks for all the useful feedback. I've now finished that game.

I had 3 level 3 spies and 1 level 2 spy in the surrounding districts, which wasn't enough to stop all the spies, chased a few out though.

As soon as I unlocked the policy card that reduces enemy spy levels, on the next turn I killed 3 spies, captured 2 and chased out another 3. So it seems that policy card makes quite a difference.

I also worked on my diplomatic relationships to the point they would promise to stop spying. Between the two I ended up keeping most of the gold income in the late game. My capital was producing 1300 gpt in the end.

Moving forwards I'll keep the espionage mechanics in mind before putting all my eggs in one basket.

 

[Tech Osen]

I'd say that the RNG will catch up and favor you in the long run. It sounds like you have at least 2 good spies covering the CH, so even when one takes off a turn to get promoted, you still have coverage.

In that game I mentioned earlier in the thread my income was negative and because I had no money units were getting disbanded. One guess as to which units got the axe first...

 

[Victoria]

So it seems that policy card makes quite a difference.

Yes, you may have a level 3 spy but if their spy is level3-4 you are not going to stop them, then if they have intelligence agency you really start loosing gold. Cold War cryptography is such an important card, but then so are the counter intelligence promotions.

 

[Sequence07]

Yes, you may have a level 3 spy but if their spy is level3-4 you are not going to stop them, then if they have intelligence agency you really start loosing gold. Cold War cryptography is such an important card, but then so are the counter intelligence promotions.

Is there a cap to spy levels? In the commercial district I had a level 3 spy with the seduction promotion, which should put him at level 5. I had another spy in the city center counter spying with the quarter master promotion, which should have bumped the other spy up to 6. I also had a spy in the industrial district with the polygraph promotion. So even if the enemy spies were level 3 with seduction, I should have still had two levels more than them. But I only chased away spies (never killed or captured) until I unlocked and slotted cryptography.

Maybe it was just my luck with rng, but I'm still not sure I understand how levels impact mission success chances and counter spying. It feels all a bit all or nothing. Is that rng or am I still miss understanding the mechanics?

 

[Victoria]

Is there a cap to spy levels?

There is a cap to the level of the spy and there is a cap to the success/failure of a mission
But there are modifiers so you secret agent (+3) defending with cryptography (+5) with 2 quartermasters (+7) and has the promotions seduction, polygraph and surveillance (+11) and you are playing with the intelligence agency (+12).... then a secret agent does not really stand a chance... but I believe you chance is never lower than the base nor higher than +4 so +12 against a noob is less value... also... When the secret agent is caught/killed your super dooper promoted secret agent who cannot be promoted anymore stops counter surveillance to get a pat on the back and does not notice the other 3 spies taking the money.... But sure all 4 spies would have to finish their attack on you in the same turn.

 

[Sequence07]

Interesting, so quarter master stacks?

I think I've still got a mid game save, will have to load it up and do some testing.

Thanks for your insight

 

[Victoria]

so quarter master stacks?

Yes, one of the few things that was simple to test. Most was not and have not tested everything by any degree. Testing defensive spies is not simple ... offensive is not so hard but laborious. The assumption is because the quartermasses stack offensively they also do so defensively.