Ethnic Cleansing

[Montes]

This may sound kind of bad, but why isn't there an option for ethnic cleansing? It's happened far too many times in history to not be an option in Civ. It could be helpful for when you take over a city, if it offers you to take the city, destroy, or cleanse it (which could kill 60%-70%) of the cities native populace (which would also take away from the cities total population.

It could also be used as a bonus for police state, or at least police state could more rapidly convert the population of the cities you conquered to you.

Just a thought.

 

[greenpeace]

Well, is you take a city and starve the citizens (by working low food tiles/worker specialists) doesn't that have the same affect?

 

[number51]

Well, is you take a city and starve the citizens (by working low food tiles/worker specialists) doesn't that have the same affect?

Wouldn't you be starving off your people as well? I think greenpeace (the poster not the organization ) is looking for a way to reduce total population while increasing the percentage of friendlies.

 

[JustinianVII]

If you want ethnic cleansing, that's what slavery is for Get that unruly populace to build important structures for a newly conquered city, like a Courthouse or Theatre.

 

[greenpeace]

Wouldn't you be starving off your people as well? I think greenpeace (the poster not the organization ) is looking for a way to reduce total population while increasing the percentage of friendlies.

Well, when you conquer a city you won't have any population so you wouldn't be killing off your own population. But your right, if you grow a pop and then starve off the citizens, you will be killing some of you own.

 

[Montes]

Well, when you conquer a city you won't have any population so you wouldn't be killing off your own population. But your right, if you grow a pop and then starve off the citizens, you will be killing some of you own.

Not if it was a nearby city and lets say, 25% of it was of your nation.

 

[Montes]

If you want ethnic cleansing, that's what slavery is for Get that unruly populace to build important structures for a newly conquered city, like a Courthouse or Theatre.

Never thought about that. Good idea.

 

[greenpeace]

Not if it was a nearby city and lets say, 25% of it was of your nation.

Well, its still somewhat realistic because the majority of citizens of the foreign country will be killed leaving your citizens to repopulate it (besides if your starving a city to perform ethnic cleansing then your citizens will die too).

 

[bioelectricclam]

As a corollary to this, why can't I purge the heathens from my cities? That would at least make that silly Apostolic Palace less painful to warmongers.

 

[dutchking]

Disturbing concept...

 

[AfterShafter]

Disturbing concept...

Civ tends to include a few of those in one form or another... Slavery, religious war, razing of cities, pillaging of countrysides, police states, and some of the most brutal warmongers and dictators ever seen, given a cutesy, cartoony visages... I'd say that disturbing concepts are far from off limit in Civ. Just present them as either A) cute or B) numerically. Except Hitler - he's just too evil.

 

[Incan Emperor]

Civ tends to include a few of those in one form or another... Slavery, religious war, razing of cities, pillaging of countrysides, police states, and some of the most brutal warmongers and dictators ever seen, given a cutesy, cartoony visages... I'd say that disturbing concepts are far from off limit in Civ. Just present them as either A) cute or B) numerically. Except Hitler - he's just too evil.

I dont want to turn this into a "Hitler should be in the game" debate, but thats naive and victors justice to say the least, Mao and Stalin where much worse, and thats only talking about leaders of the same era.

Hitler is not in the game because of political correctness, nothing else.

 

[AfterShafter]

I dont want to turn this into a "Hitler should be in the game" debate, but thats naive and victors justice to say the least, Mao and Stalin where much worse, and thats only talking about leaders of the same era.

Hitler is not in the game because of political correctness, nothing else.

Heh, don't fool yourself... It has "ethnic cleansing" in the title on an internet discussion board, it WILL become a Hitler discussion. I've just sped it along

And actually, Hitler is not in the game because they couldn't sell it in Germany if they did. If PC was a counter-argument, Stalin couldn't be in there. Now, I think I'll hastily evacuate this thread...

 

[Incan Emperor]

Heh, don't fool yourself... It has "ethnic cleansing" in the title on an internet discussion board, it WILL become a Hitler discussion. I've just sped it along

And actually, Hitler is not in the game because they couldn't sell it in Germany if they did. If PC was a counter-argument, Stalin couldn't be in there. Now, I think I'll hastily evacuate this thread...

Isnt that stupid law in Germany PC? I once heard of an engineer who made a scale replica of an ME 262, with turbines and all, he invested $20Ks or so buiding it, and after that he just wanted some historical accuracy and place a swastika on it, went out to the park to fly his plane, like many people do but he got arrested.

Arrested because of a simbol that wasnt even invention of the Nazis, its imprinted on multiple Greek items in display at museums, but no one relates a Greek swastika with evil.

 

[Fireseal]

This could potentially work if they change it to "displace foreign nationals", and have it reduce foreign culture (with a diplomacy hit with the other leader).

 

[AmazonQueen]

Isnt that stupid law in Germany PC? I once heard of an engineer who made a scale replica of an ME 262, with turbines and all, he invested $20Ks or so buiding it, and after that he just wanted some historical accuracy and place a swastika on it, went out to the park to fly his plane, like many people do but he got arrested.

Arrested because of a simbol that wasnt even invention of the Nazis, its imprinted on multiple Greek items in display at museums, but no one relates a Greek swastika with evil.

That law predates PC as a concept. It was around long before the term "Political Correctness" was coined.

 

[Iranon]

Ethnic cleansing via slavery doesn't work; nationality is based on relative culture output. Unfortunately, I can't just whip away those degenerate Dutch and replace them with my Mayan master race.

Purges would be an interesting addition to the game, but they would require lots and lots of work to be implemented well (imo, if we're throwing political correctness out of the window, we need to do it well... otherwise it cheapens the game).

***

Despite being opposed to the excessive censorship in Germany, I think Hitler would feel off as a playable choice (as would an Oliver Cromwell of England... they simply don't mesh with the general feel of the civilization). Stalin is an acceptable representative of Russia because she had her share of oppressive leaders who nevertheless got the job done (I'm not touching the subject of whether it was worth the cost in human life).

 

[Monkeyfinger]

This could potentially work if they change it to "displace foreign nationals", and have it reduce foreign culture (with a diplomacy hit with the other leader).

Brilliant. It does have to cost population though.

OT: Stalin and Mao were ruthless, and had no objections to mass killing to further their goals, but the killing itself wasn't what they took power to achieve. It was something else that, to them, just required bloodshed to pull off. Hitler's sole purpose on the other hand was to exterminate a race. Genocide wasn't his means; it was his end. It was what he reconfigured Germany's infrastructure to speed the process of. That's why Hitler's considered more evil.

And Civ2 had Hitler in a scenario. Guess Sid didn't always care about sucking up to the German market...

 

[AfterShafter]

Brilliant. It does have to cost population though.

OT: Stalin and Mao were ruthless, and had no objections to mass killing to further their goals, but the killing itself wasn't what they took power to achieve. It was something else that, to them, just required bloodshed to pull off. Hitler's sole purpose on the other hand was to exterminate a race. Genocide wasn't his means; it was his end. It was what he reconfigured Germany's infrastructure to speed the process of. That's why Hitler's considered more evil.

And Civ2 had Hitler in a scenario. Guess Sid didn't always care about sucking up to the German market...

Well I think it stands to reason it would cost population, since you're expelling certain parts of the population! What I wouldn't mind is to allow one to transfer population from one city to another (but only from a larger to a smaller)... Perhaps via means of something like caravans in Civ II.

OT: Actually, the reasons you've listed are precisely the reasons that some people consider Stalin "more evil." Hitler's position was, "Human life is valuable and should be honored and protected - but these people aren't human, so we will use and slaughter them with no regard for them" - a position that does value humanity, just in very warped terms. Stalin's position was "Human life is to be honored only insofar as it is a means to our end - when a human life conflicts with our ends, exploit it and end it." Human life wasn't anything but numbers for him, and his position devalued all of humanity to tools to get a job done. Oh, and he killed *way* more people - just another day at the office for him.

 

[Ninja2]

Just raze the city and rebuild your own... after all, you don't want the filthy buildings of the enemy still present in your glorious cities, do you?