Euch.. 'England'!

[Schuesseled]

I think England will suffice for our civ's name, demanding it to be called 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland', sounds a tad fussy, plus it wouldn't fit very well into the text boxes in the diplomacy menu. (besides it will be documented properly in the civlopedia)

"England is located on Great Britain, a "green and pleasant" island off of the western coast of Europe. It is the largest member of the political entity known as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Historically a seafaring people, for much of the past 500 years the English have used their incomparable navy to project their power into Europe and across the globe."

 

[YoHo]

I didn't read all the posts in this thread. There is a rather long and lovely discussion on this very topic over on the 2k forums, been there for weeks, its a bunch of bickering. Not sure this discussion here is adding anything.

There are apparently a group of British people who think that England was unimportant to world history prior to the Uniting of the Crown.
But whatever.

 

[12agnar0k]

That's a nice discription, , throw in a couple "Obviously God's chosen representivies amoung man, with physical prowess that far exceeds that of other Nations" and "The more evolved of the Human species, the English people have dominated society for hundreds of thousands of years, it may be incorrect to call the English God's amoungst Man, but who cares." Lines and it would be perfect.

 

[brianshapiro]

My point exactly, The US stole the term, and even I myself when I hear "America" or "American" I immediatly think of the US, as we generally in the UK refer to the US as Americans, even though that also includes all of the peoples of The America's. Fact is, "American" is a globally recognised term for a person from the US (even though thats completely incorrect), it has been hijacked from what it should mean which is a "a person from the America Continent/s". The situation is different to that of people mixing up "Britain & England", they aren't named the same and mixing them up is just sheer ignorance or from a lack of knowledge.

Why are you accusing the US? It most likely started when Europeans were emigrating to the US and referred to it as moving 'to America', when they were there, considering themselves 'Americans'. The US as an entity has nothing to do with it.

 

[12agnar0k]

Why are you accusing the US? It most likely started when Europeans were emigrating to the US and referred to it as moving 'to America', when they were there, considering themselves 'Americans'. The US as an entity has nothing to do with it.

No, back then the Continent/s we now know as "America" was called "The New World", so if the continent was still called "The New World" and your country "The United States of The New World" then you could say it was the fault of the people "moving to the new world", but no, the name of the continent came after, and when the "United States of America" was created it was "American's" (to use the incorrect term) that named it as such. Before, the states all had independant names,

Heres a nice little map,

Spoiler :

As you can see they are not all called "X State of America" they were just called X, when the US was formed however you decided to name the country after the continent/s, which in hindsight, was quite silly.

 

[Ataxerxes]

A couple of observations regarding Britain/England.

I live in the U.S. and we do sometimes refer to ourselves as Americans, although that is, technically, incorrect. Odd thing is, we never refer to the continent as America, but as "North America."

England vs. Britain can be quite interesting. I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, that more than their share of prime ministers came from Wales, including the "Welsh Wizard". Didn't the Tudors have stronger ties to Wales than England before they took the throne?

Scotland is even more interesting. After the death of Elizabeth, England invited the King of Scotland to be their king, which started the Stuarts, who were kings of England and Scotland, although they were separate countries. I believe that, when Scotland voted for unification, some of their parliament members were bribed by the English to vote for unification.

The comment that England is a Civilization, and Great Britain is a country makes a lot of sense. I think the decision is a close one, and our reaction tells more about us than it does about the facts of the matter.

 

[brianshapiro]

No, back then the Continent/s we now know as "America" was called "The New World", so if the continent was still called "The New World" and your country "The United States of The New World" then you could say it was the fault of the people "moving to the new world", but no, the name of the continent came after, and when the "United States of America" was created it was "American's" (to use the incorrect term) that named it as such. Before, the states all had independant names,

Heres a nice little map,

Spoiler :

As you can see they are not all called "X State of America" they were just called X, when the US was formed however you decided to name the country after the continent/s, which in hindsight, was quite silly.

They wouldn't always refer to the states by independent names. The Britsh would often refer to it as 'the colonies'. I don't know when it started being referred to as 'America' but I see no reason to assume it started with the creation of the United States

 

[EdCase]

Strange, strange thread. If it helps my mother is Scottish, my father was (may he rest in peace) Welsh,. I was born and raised in England and regarded myself as English. Though I am now a naturalized citizen of the U.S.A.

So I'm Welsh/Scottish in lineage.English in upbringing and accent and American by nationality. Speaking as the ultimate mutt I have to ask..why it is so important ? It is a name easily changed...or not, in a game of what if ? played often on a random map with leaders that live for 5000 years...

Lighten up people.

 

[YoHo]

Waldseemuller is generally credited with having invented the word "America".

South America and North America were named after Amerigo Vespucci in 1507. Amerigo Vespucci was an Italian explorer who was the first person to realize that the Americas were completely separate from Asia, when he mapped the eastern coast of South America in 1502. A German mapmaker named Martin Waldseemuller was the first person to print a map that used the name "America" for the New World. Waldseemuller only used the word "America" for South America. The name became popular throughout Europe. In 1538, Gerardus Mercator was the first person to make a map that included both the names "North America" and "South America" in it.

Now, as to who decided to start referring to the country as America. I don't know, but I think initially the concept of calling ourselves Americans grew out of a distinction from European and was explicitly intended to apply to all nations in the new world.

It was an outgrowth of the Monroe Doctrine.

 

[12agnar0k]

They wouldn't always refer to the states by independent names. The Britsh would often refer to it as 'the colonies'. I don't know when it started being referred to as 'America' but I see no reason to assume it started with the creation of the United States

The Colonies may very well have been a name for the European occupied part of The America's or The New World as it was called. But we certainly didn't start reffering to your "States" as "America" as a whole, because we know the continent exists and when the New World was given the name America, it was the continent that was being named and not the "Area" which comprises the US. It was indeed the "Americans" as they are incorrectly known who gave themselfs the name when they formed thier country, as previously they weren't a country but a part of the British (or other European) Empire. The namesake "The United States of America" was coined by those who decided to call it that, the area that consists of the States that make up the US was never reffered to as "America" but rather the enitre landmass was, if you decided to call yourselfs "The United States of America" it was done merely as a "We are obviously the only important people on this rock" statement. I mean it is as ridiclious as if when the "United Kingdom of Great Britain And Ireland" was formed we called it the "United Kingdom of Europe" even though it isn't.

The History of the Word America

That is an interesting read, even if you don't care about this little quibble.

But you can clearly see from the timeline of established use of the word.
(Thier are a few different theories on who came up with the name America or who it was named after.)

1568 - The 16th-century European usage of American denoted the native inhabitants of the New World.[6] The earliest recorded use of this term in English is in Thomas Hacket's 1568 translation of André Thévet's book on France Antarctique; Thévet himself had referred to the natives as Ameriques

1648, - in Thomas Gage's The English-American: A New Survet of the West Indies.[6] In English, "American" was used especially for people in the British America.

1776 - American came to be applied to citizens of the United States when the country was formed.[6] The Declaration of Independence refers to "[the] unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America" adopted by the "Representatives of the united States of America" on July 4, 1776. The official name of the country was established on November 15, 1777,

So as you can see, clearly the term was used to describe the people from America (the continent), long before it was used to describe ex-europeans in America. Infact today in some cultures people still don't recognise American as a term for people from the U.S, this is because the word already existed to mean something else and that meaning never ceased unlike with some other definitions.

From the Royal Spanish Academy,

But the use of americano to refer exclusively to inhabitants of the United States should be avoided; this abusive usage is explained by the fact that U.S. citizens often use the abbreviated name América (in English, without an accent) to refer to their country. One should not forget that América is the name of the entire continent and all who inhabit it are americanos.

 

[YoHo]

That logic is stupid.

No pussyfooting around it.
The country is a United group of States that exist in America. Thus the United States of America is a perfectly correct and valid name.
And in fact, we are the only United States in America as no other country in the American Continents has our historical structure (though many have post facto states)

 

[brianshapiro]

The Colonies may very well have been a name for the European occupied part of The America's or The New World as it was called. But we certainly didn't start reffering to your "States" as "America" as a whole, because we know the continent exists and when the New World was given the name America, it was the continent that was being named and not the "Area" which comprises the US. It was indeed the "Americans" as they are incorrectly known who gave themselfs the name when they formed thier country, as previously they weren't a country but a part of the British (or other European) Empire. The namesake "The United States of America" was coined by those who decided to call it that, the area that consists of the States that make up the US was never reffered to as "America" but rather the enitre landmass was, if you decided to call yourselfs "The United States of America" it was done merely as a "We are obviously the only important people on this rock" statement. I mean it is as ridiclious as if when the "United Kingdom of Great Britain And Ireland" was formed we called it the "United Kingdom of Europe" even though it isn't.

Calling themselves the 'United States of America' wasn't an act of arrogance, they wanted focus on the fact the government was a federalist system; that the national government was merely a representative of the individual states, and there was no obvious alternative to the term 'America'. They could have called it the 'United States of North America', sure, but the people of that country would have still referred to themselves as 'Americans'.

'Kingdom' is a different type of term than 'states' it refers to a single sovereignty and single entity instead of multiple entities. The sovereignty of the single entity obviously doesn't extend to Europe. But the 'states' are present in America. A better analogy would be the fact that the "European Union" doesn't include 18 nations in Europe. They're claiming the name 'European Union' even though they're not a union of all of Europe!

Europeans going anywhere in the new world, South or North America, probably spoke of 'going to America' or 'going to the Americas', the US just being a very popular destination. I'd think the singular 'America' had been used some time, otherwise where would the colonists get the term 'of America' from ?

 

[12agnar0k]

That logic is stupid.

No pussyfooting around it.
The country is a United group of States that exist in America. Thus the United States of America is a perfectly correct and valid name.
And in fact, we are the only United States in America as no other country in the American Continents has our historical structure (though many have post facto states)

Its as silly as calling your Country "The United States Of America Of Earth Of The Milky Way", If your countries name is bespoke then its not needed, for example the UK is not called "The United Kingdom Of Europe", although technically its correct.

I'm fairly sure other countries in America have had a history of being created formed from smaller parts, lol.

 

[12agnar0k]

Europeans going anywhere in the new world, South or North America, probably spoke of 'going to America' or 'going to the Americas', the US just being a very popular destination. I'd think the singular 'America' had been used some time, otherwise where would the colonists get the term 'of America' from ?

My point exactly, though what they used more commonly be it "The New World" "The America's" "America" "The Colonies" "British America" or the various other titles for the continent / original US, is unknown.

The fact is that "Americans" reffered to all residents of "America", as time went by people from The Colonies started reffering to themselves as "American", they probably included all other American peoples too. But may very well have added titles to each class, i.e British American, showing your original origins. (Which you do still do today such as African American only with American meaning the US). Eventually nearly 300 years after the European man first saw The New World, "The United States Of America" was formed, (United together and independant of The Old World) They were previously known simply as "British America". Eventually the US claimed all the territory it now has. But anyway at some point, The US citizens decided "America" & "American" reffered to thier nationality and no other Countries of America, and this misconception spread. While the Original naming may not of been arrogant I admit, at some point down the line, Arrogance took over.

 

[Dale]

America is defined as originally referring to all the lands of the two continents. "America" has been used by the Spanish to refer to those lands since 1507.

In 1507, Martin Waldseemüller produced a world map on which he named the new continent America after Vespucci's first name, Amerigo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerigo_Vespucci

Calling people of the USA "Americans" is technically true, but Canadians, Mexicans, Brazilians, Chilians and all other occupants of the two continents are also "Americans".

 

[paradigmx]

an exert from Wikipedia(I know I know, Wikipedia bad)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas

"The earliest known use of the name America for this particular landmass dates from April 25, 1507. It appears first on a small globe map with twelve time zones, and then a large wall map created by the German cartographer Martin Waldseemüller in Saint-Dié-des-Vosges in France. An accompanying book, Cosmographiae Introductio, states, "I do not see what right any one would have to object to calling this part, after Americus who discovered it and who is a man of intelligence, Amerige, that is, the Land of Americus, or America: since both Europa and Asia got their names from women". Americus Vespucius is the Latinized version of the Florentine explorer Amerigo Vespucci's name, and America is the feminine form of Americus.[24][25] Amerigo itself is an Italian form of the medieval Latin Emericus (see also Saint Emeric of Hungary), which through the German form Heinrich (in English, Henry) derived from the Germanic name Haimirich.[26]"

In it's original form, the US was simply "The Thirteen Colonies", The Articles of Confederation where signed and they declared independence from Britain, this was not the same country, it merely shared the same landmass. Britain took this as a declaration of war and referred to it as the "American Revolution" as it was her colonies in the Americas that where revolting. During the war, as a slap in the face to Britain, the Thirteen Colonies then signed the "United States Declaration of Independence" and adopted the name "United States of America" as it's nations name.

Though the term Manifest Destiny was not used for another 50 years, the sentiment that the Thirteen Colonies or "United States of America" was destined to rule all of America was already prevalent. it was barely more than 30 years after the Revolution was over that the US declared war on Britain again in order to obtain the Canadian Colonies for herself, an attempt that failed quite miserably.

This is just opinion here, but in my belief, the reason the US took the name "United States of America" is because, even during the Revolution, the founders had intended on claiming the entirety of America.

As a side note, I'm Canadian, I never refer to myself as American, always Canadian or North American, but never directly American.

 

[brianshapiro]

an exert from Wikipedia(I know I know, Wikipedia bad)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas

This is just opinion here, but in my belief, the reason the US took the name "United States of America" is because, even during the Revolution, the founders had intended on claiming the entirety of America.

Many of the founders thought that the federal government annexing territory was Unconstitutional, including Jefferson, though he broke with his principles and signed the Louisiana purchase. There wasn't any concept that the landmass could be claimed in the name of the government.

 

[paradigmx]

Many of the founders thought that the federal government annexing territory was Unconstitutional, including Jefferson, though he broke with his principles and signed the Louisiana purchase. There wasn't any concept that the landmass could be claimed in the name of the government.

I'm not saying it was a unanimous belief, but it was enough of a belief that it stirred interest in expanding the domain of the US. It was also enough of a belief to cause war with Britain again, though admittedly there where a multitude of reasons for that war from both the US and British points of view.

 

[Perfxion]

As a person from a damn near country(Texas) within the United States, I use the term "America" to describe "The United States of America with over seas territories of Guam, Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, Samoa, and other small islands". Americans as a term of people generally means people from the land mass between Maine and Texas. Whats weirder is that in this country, We see three American continents. North(US, Canada, Caribbean Islands), Central(Panama through Mexico) and South(everything south of the canal). Even though North and Central are one continent, the cultural split of the Rio grand seems to be as good of line as any.

Besides what do you call people from "US" if not Americans? There is no other name of call the people of this nation or culture. Only in this nation do we sub divide it some more. Yankees only work for the North(and really just NY/CT). Dixie, is just the South. There is no other unified word for "All citizens and inhabitants of the US. It goes British, French, Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Americans, Brazilians, Mexicans, Canadians, ect.

Most importantly, the game is made by AMERICANS from an AMERICAN perspective of what to call the civilizations. Thus British=English, Germans=Prussians, Russia=ENTIRE IRON CURTAIN, ect. Not may not all be that correct. But thats the way we see it.

 

[paradigmx]

As a person from a damn near country(Texas) within the United States, I use the term "America" to describe "The United States of America with over seas territories of Guam, Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, Samoa, and other small islands". Americans as a term of people generally means people from the land mass between Maine and Texas. Whats weirder is that in this country, We see three American continents. North(US, Canada, Caribbean Islands), Central(Panama through Mexico) and South(everything south of the canal). Even though North and Central are one continent, the cultural split of the Rio grand seems to be as good of line as any.

Besides what do you call people from "US" if not Americans? There is no other name of call the people of this nation or culture. Only in this nation do we sub divide it some more. Yankees only work for the North(and really just NY/CT). Dixie, is just the South. There is no other unified word for "All citizens and inhabitants of the US. It goes British, French, Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Americans, Brazilians, Mexicans, Canadians, ect.

Most importantly, the game is made by AMERICANS from an AMERICAN perspective of what to call the civilizations. Thus British=English, Germans=Prussians, Russia=ENTIRE IRON CURTAIN, ect. Not may not all be that correct. But thats the way we see it.

USians?